APFA Proposes Dues Increase

[jersey777]

Even though as a junior f/a I tend to get zero assistance on any subject from the APFA, I am not in the "they haven't done anything for me; so I'm not going to give them an increase in dues" camp. I'm not voting for a dues increase because I have not been given an explanation for the need for a dues increase.

"We are in negotiations; so, we need this dues increase." This is more of a non sequitur than an explanation. It makes about as much sense as "The sun rose this morning; so, we need a dues increase."

What do they intend to do with the increased revenue? Print more useless signs and start up meaningless, totally ineffective campaigns? (See also, Decline/Resign.)

I find it interesting that they (the APFA) want to move the negotiations out of DFW area "to avoid distractions." Where do they want to move them? Puerto Vallarta? Palm Springs? Mid-town Manhattan? What "distractions"?

Call me paranoid and suspicious, but I have a feeling that the dues increase has more to do with paying for expensive hotels in resort areas for the negotiations than anything else? Right now, the negotiators can stay at home at night or in reasonably priced hotels in the DFW area. Why should we increase the cost of the negotiations by moving them to some high-priced locale?

I would be willing to bet that if the company said, "Ok, we'll move the negotiations site to avoid distractions? How about the Holiday Inn-Airport in Birmingham, AL?", the APFA's response would be underwhelming. (BTW, that Holiday Inn is very nice. I just stayed there last weekend. I'm just making a point.)

I think you are right to challenge any dues increase. We should never write a blank check to any entity. With that said, there are many many added expenses with negotiations. Now I have no firsthand knowledge on the exact details but they would start with a huge increase in lawyer and consulatant fees. Add to that trip removals and expenses for all the negotiators. Then you have to consider the very likelihood of inforallys and strike preparations. . Drag this out over a 3 year period...which is very likely and the cost can be staggering.

As far as moving negotiations, this has been done in the past. If I am correct, in the past they have used a hotel near ORD. Yes, suburban Chicago.


On the issue of bagtags, etc....in 1992 and 1993 the union started a pins and wings campaign. Before that time hardly anyone wore their union pin. In fact, we were thought of as the "weak union". But all of a sudden it bacame a real sign of unity that no really felt before. Then the union started a bag tag campaign with the theme of "ready, willing, and able". In unison, the membership changed their bag tags to reflect the changing intensity of the negotiations. If your bag tag was not correct people told you to"turn it around". Now what did all this do? It created a huge sense of comraderie and sign a unity...something we had not really felt before. It not only was a visible sign to the company but was a visible sign to each other. I believe it led directly to the success rate of flight attendants going out on strike in 1993. Since that time, there have been an overabundance of bag tags (decline and resign). However, as things heat up it is my hope that a single and focused sign of unity be proposed by the union.

 

[IORFA]

APFA has trampled all over its membership. I doubt there will be much support for a dues increase. Do they really think more dues money is going to result in a better contract? Delusional. Do they think they will have more "unity" with more dues money? Delusional.

Delusional? Yes, problem is that it is more than just the APFA. How has APFA trampled over you? Or was it the mythical person you always talk about, but no one else can mention?

 

[jimntx]

I think you are right to challenge any dues increase. We should never write a blank check to any entity. With that said, there are many many added expenses with negotiations. Now I have no firsthand knowledge on the exact details but they would start with a huge increase in lawyer and consulatant fees. Add to that trip removals and expenses for all the negotiators. Then you have to consider the very likelihood of inforallys and strike preparations. . Drag this out over a 3 year period...which is very likely and the cost can be staggering.

However, as has already been pointed out in this thread, the LAST dues increase was to include an amount that would be dedicated to nothing but the next negotiations (aka, the current negotiations). What happened to that money? Or, was it not put away for the current rainy day as promised?

 

[BigBangTheory]

From what I was told by the new Treasurer, it costs $1,000,000 per year to negotiate. He also told me we have 15,200 active flight attendants paying dues. If my math is correct that would come to; $623,200 per year in dues. With the $5 increase this would increase it to; $699,200 per year.

 

[butchord45]

From what I was told by the new Treasurer, it costs $1,000,000 per year to negotiate. He also told me we have 15,200 active flight attendants paying dues. If my math is correct that would come to; $623,200 per year in dues. With the $5 increase this would increase it to; $699,200 per year.

Ahhhhh....no...

41.50 permonth X 12 (months) X 15,200 = $7,569,600

 

[BigBangTheory]

Ahhhhh....no...

41.50 permonth X 12 (months) X 15,200 = $7,569,600

Oops, my total was for the month not the year.

 

[jersey777]

However, as has already been pointed out in this thread, the LAST dues increase was to include an amount that would be dedicated to nothing but the next negotiations (aka, the current negotiations). What happened to that money? Or, was it not put away for the current rainy day as promised?

Do some research and show me where the union said the last dues increase was for this round of negotiations.

 

[L1011Ret]

Delusional? Yes, problem is that it is more than just the APFA. How has APFA trampled over you? Or was it the mythical person you always talk about, but no one else can mention?

Well for starters APFA trampled all over the TWAers and that other airline they merged with. Then look at how they trampled over their own members in the RPA. There are many more examples you can find about junior/senior, etc. And then look at how much responsibility APFA took for their failures in the RPA. Zero, ZIP. They have no accountability for themselves. Then look at who they blame for the RPA, a few disgruntaled members. Over and over APFA alienates them selves from the members. They deserve what they get.

 

[IORFA]

That "other airline" was Reno Air. Plus, don't forget that APFA had no responsibility to look out for former TWA F/A's well being. That was the IAM's job. Get mad at them for doing such a bad job, not APFA. APFA did exactly what they were supposed to do and I must say, they did an admirable job. They should be commended for their actions. Well done APFA!!! Also, jimntx was right. APFA increased our dues by $3, I think, for a future negotiations fund. What happened to all that money? I also agree that APFA has given us almost zero information on why they need it, only they want/need it. Till then I say NO.

 

[Skymess]

From what I was told by the new Treasurer, it costs $1,000,000 per year to negotiate. He also told me we have 15,200 active flight attendants paying dues. If my math is correct that would come to; $623,200 per year in dues. With the $5 increase this would increase it to; $699,200 per year.

As Jim has said, and I have been thinking, why does it cost that? What is the breakdown? Where EXACTLY is our money going and HOW is raising the dues going to make them any better at negotiating? If they can explain the pertinent details, I will consider it. Until that time, I vote no to nonsense. Hmm. Sounds like one of their stupid bag tags and, strangely enough, it didn't cost ME money. 😛

 

[FA Mikey]

They are looking for additional funds to help with the expanded costs of negotiations. It requires more people, additional hours for outside counsel and experts. Even regular fixed costs go through the roof. Example our phone bill can run up to several hundred thousand dollars a month during negotiations.

My belief is give them all the money and tools they need and hold them accountable to an exceptional CBA. Then require an accountability of all the funds.

I dont understand going to battle with a company with almost unlimited funds and resource and not giving your own side everything it needs. When people want to Biggee size there seat MC to FC its cost a few more dollars. Same is true for a CBA. Wont the payoff be worth the investment?

I guess when they find they are out gunned and come back unable to fulfill the mandate of the membership, all the "NO" people will understand and not complain.

 

[jimntx]

Also, jimntx was right. APFA increased our dues by $3, I think, for a future negotiations fund. What happened to all that money? I also agree that APFA has given us almost zero information on why they need it, only they want/need it. Till then I say NO.

They are looking for additional funds to help with the expanded costs of negotiations. It requires more people, additional hours for outside counsel and experts. Even regular fixed costs go through the roof. Example our phone bill can run up to several hundred thousand dollars a month during negotiations.

Ok, Mike let's say that costs have expanded. Answer the following questions for me. APFA headquarters has been less than forthcoming so far.

1. Costs have "expanded." Why?
2. Did they not have extra telephone calls, outside counsel and experts in previous negotiations, or was it strictly amateur night in previous negotiations? Perhaps, the need for the outside counsel and experts was kept secret from the current negotiators?
3. Did the opening of negotiations sneak up on them while they were busy doing something else? Or, did the company call them up in the middle of the night and say, "Negotiations start at 0800 tomorrow. Be there or be square?" I knew back in 2003 before i was furloughed that the contract would be opened in 2008. Was I the only one?
4. Finally, as has been pointed out 3 times now, the last dues increase was supposed to include funds to be set aside for future negotiations? What happened to the money? Was it not set aside? If not, what was done with the funds collected?

I am not voting for a dues increase simply because "the union tells me so." I voted for the last increase to give them the wherewithal to negotiate the best contract and work conditions and still got thrown under the bus. As they say, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

 

[youbetcha]

APFA's expenses are always available for any member in good standing to view. Your Base Chairs receive the monthly financials and can be viewed by contacting your Chair. You can go to APFA Headquarters any time you want and see the entire picture.
There is no luxury at APFA Headquarters.
The Reps who work Monday through Friday and commute in, stay at the Drury. Now that's Posh!!! Not.
You, too, can have this luxurious life if you, first, VOLUNTEER your time to get trained, then give up your time to commute in every week and be gone from home for 5 days at a time, attend continual education trainings, and then work the phones for FAs who are in need of information and help. Oh, yes, and every once in awhile, deal with a very small group of FAs who whine and complain about how bad life is for them but who choose to sit and do absolutely nothing but complain, complain, complain. They are the MeMes we fly with. It 's all about Me, ME, MEEE!
I am so sick of listening to the whiners. Buck up. We are in negotiations. No whining allowed.
We are an independent union. We, unlike the monster unions out there, have transparency.
WE have the right to view our monthly financials. Every check that is written. Every trip removal. Every department. Every Base.
If anyone is making financial accusations without viewing the financials themselves and asking the pertinent questions, then THEY are the ones to be scorned. THEY are the ones who are bringing us all down. THEY are our weakest link.

On some of the e boards out there, I keep reading how the National Officers, and everyone else at APFA should take some huge paycut, get us the most unrealistic contract, serve us 24/7, fly trips, etc. WOW!! These demands are WORSE than AA demands!! And, yet, some expect a great contract from these working conditions????

The National Officers are paid by the same hourly rate that they are paid as FAs. I believe the highest pay is 110 hours @ international rates of pay. For most high time flyers, that would be one heck of a paycut. If a pay increase is negotiated, then they get that increase. If a cut in pay happens, as in the Restructuring, then they take a paycut. That....is motivation.

For those who keep tearing down our union, what do you hope to accomplish? Can you imagine what it is for those APFA reps and negotiators that have been elected by their peers to continually hear and read such low regard? Can you imagine how they feel, going up against the company, that there are those who are continually tearing them down? Nothing like fighting an uphill battle on 2 fronts.

I will vote yes for a dues increase. I don't like giving my money to anyone. But, I have viewed the financials with my Base Chair. I keep up with what APFA is REALLY doing. APFA is financially sound but, negotiations are very expensive. I remember one month's phone bill from 1993 was 800,000 bucks. That was just for calls to the 800#.

APFA hires Professionals to be at the table with them. There are lawyers, professional negotiators, economists, actuarials, etc. That is good money spent but these professionals do not come cheap. Nor would we want the cheapest and weakest. We continually hear that the we all want professionals at the table. Well, we do have them and they cost money. Our membership ranks have decreased by somewhere around 8-9000 FAs since 2001-2003. That's a lot of money gone. Yet, no other costs have come down and we all experience that in our own lives.

Negotiations will probably head off site in the not too distant future. That is what Mediators do. I remember in 1993, the mediator took them to Colorado in winter and somewhere in north central Florida in the summer. Mediators like to make it UNCOMFORTABLE for both sides to get them motivated to get out of there. But, that has a cost as well.

APFA has to continually gear up for the PR war that takes place. Many parts of a contract are won or lost in the press. That is expensive.

And the greatest motivator of all is membership SUPPORT. Regardless of your feelings of what, where, and when you have felt screwed, we all have to give our negotiators our support. They must feel empowered to fight like a dog on an meat truck. AA feels very empowered everytime they read of dischord. They feel even more empowered when they know the internal operation of APFA better than its own members. They live and breathe off the ignorance.

Every APFA Rep that I have dealt with welcomes a member's request to view and discuss the financials. If anyone has questions, they have an obligation to get the real facts and not spread false rumors that only cause the rest of us harm.

And, it goes without saying, the RPA Lawsuit has cost us all well over a million dollars of our dues monies. And, the cost continues. Someone on this board once asked me if those people win, would I give the money back. Let me ask this, if those people lose, yet again, will they pay the membership back the millions of dollars in dues monies we all paid? Millions that should be going to negotiations and representation? If they lose, I hope my APFA will aggressively pursue our lost dues monies. This group continually states that APFA is defending AA in the lawsuit. This group SUED APFA. APFA is defending itself, not AA. For them to state otherwise is just one more false allegation to gain false support.

As Jim has said, and I have been thinking, why does it cost that? What is the breakdown? Where EXACTLY is our money going and HOW is raising the dues going to make them any better at negotiating? If they can explain the pertinent details, I will consider it. Until that time, I vote no to nonsense. Hmm. Sounds like one of their stupid bag tags and, strangely enough, it didn't cost ME money. 😛

 

[jimntx]

More blah, blah, blah about the need for the money, but no answers to the questions. Oh, but I will be contacting the Vatican to look into beatification, if not sainthood, for all those members who sacrifice so greatly to answer the phones and give me one of the following answers...

1. Just fly the trip. You can always grieve it later.
2. You'll understand when you are more senior.
3. I'm not going to get into a junior-senior discussion.
4. You're junior. Your job is to pay your dues and be quiet.
5. So, it's a crap deal. So what. It enabled another 400 f/as systemwide to get off reserve. (Followed by a repeat of answer #2.)

 

[L1011Ret]

Sorry, it is just impossible to believe there is a great correlation between dues money and the contract.