APFA runoff

[FA Mikey]

What a laugh, jw used every chance and answer to try discredit his opponent, over actually answering any question, on its merits. Each time he fell on his face/butt (they are interchangeable). The smirks, snide comments, mis-truths and lies all show him for what he really is.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

After watching the debate, I can see that Ward's "time-out" courtesy of the flight attendants voting in 2004, and the Department of Labor, taught him NOTHING. Still as rude, dismissive and anti-flight attendant as ever.

 

[nbmcg01]

After watching the debate, I can see that Ward's "time-out" courtesy of the flight attendants voting in 2004, and the Department of Labor, taught him NOTHING. Still as rude, dismissive and anti-flight attendant as ever.

I think the key issue is how one can or will work with others. JW readily admits he will choose, Laura states she will (and wants to) work with others. When one can set aside arrogance or attitude and look to include the best and the brightest (regardless of faction), the outcome stands a chance of being positive.

I find it fascinating that JW would proudly admit to flying 130+ hours a month when 1/4 of "his" membership lost their jobs during his "watch". He should set the example for NO ONE LEFT BEHIND.

 

[youbetcha]

I think the key issue is how one can or will work with others. JW readily admits he will choose, Laura states she will (and wants to) work with others. When one can set aside arrogance or attitude and look to include the best and the brightest (regardless of faction), the outcome stands a chance of being positive.

I find it fascinating that JW would proudly admit to flying 130+ hours a month when 1/4 of "his" membership lost their jobs during his "watch". He should set the example for NO ONE LEFT BEHIND.

Ward completely contradicted himself with his flying so much. Granted, this is the most he has ever flown in his life because, as he later stated, he has been in a full time APFA trip removed position since, what, 1990? While the rest of us served reserve year after year, he served a desk. These last 3 1/2 years are his first full time flying years since 1990. And still no reserve for wAArd!
Also, how about wAArd saying he was elected in 2004! He was not elected! He was removed by the DOL. Removed does not mean elected.
If wAArd should get elected watch for his first act to be to increase the president's pay!!!!! It's a pay cut to go from 130& hours at international rates of pay to the president's salary.
Get this over with!!!
Dignity and Respect for all: Glading, Durkin, Pointer and Barrera. Vote now.

 

[jimntx]

I'm guessing that Ward will win. Why? Because DFW/IDF vote--unlike other bases. And when they vote, they vote for Ward. How do you think he made it to the runoff in the first place?

 

[youbetcha]

I'm guessing that Ward will win. Why? Because DFW/IDF vote--unlike other bases. And when they vote, they vote for Ward. How do you think he made it to the runoff in the first place?

God help us all. This is the person who was scared to go on strike, was scared to get an agreement in 2001(asleep in bed while Glading/Bott pulled an all nighter to get it done), was scared to face 9/11 and 587 and Little Rock, was scared to face the restructuring, and was so scared that he tried to "fix" his own election and got caught.

What does it take to be considered a bad, bad morally corrupt person in Texas???

Everything Ward does is to cover his own, very serious, weaknesses. I'm sure that winning this election for him would wipe out everything wrong that he ever did. At least in his own mind. He will, once again, set himself up as the victim and find someone to blame for harming us all, yet again. You think the RPA was bAAd?? Just wait. This time he wouldn't have Bott to save his whiny, panicked ass. Or Glading. Or everyone else left who has a conscience to take his abuse and still do the right thing, in spite of him. No more rescuers. Now whAAt?

FAs have lost faith in their vote counting due to all the suspicions surrounding the RPA and Ward's own election. Ironically, that is the very thing that could put wAArd back in office.

We, the voters, do not deserve this.

Get the vote out people. Do NOT let DFW/IDF decide this election and our futures. Can you imagine if the fate of our strike had been in the hands of DFW/IDF??? I deeply admire the FAs at DFW/IDF who went on strike. They had the COwAArd as a leader. He did nothing to get them ready where every other base in the system had compliance rates in the 90th percentile. Boo Hoo wAArd blamed it on DFW being AMR Headquarters. Oh please. Excuses. Excuses. I do believe there are many in DFW/IDF who haven't been sucked in to the wAArd machine. They have to vote. Every vote counts in this election.

wAArd bumper sticker: Don't blame me! I didn't do a thing!! Really!!!

Get the vote out! Stop the wAArd denial machine!

Glading, Durkin, Pointer and Barrera have earned the right to be elected.

 

[Ian]

I'm guessing that Ward will win. Why? Because DFW/IDF vote--unlike other bases. And when they vote, they vote for Ward. How do you think he made it to the runoff in the first place?

How do you think Tommie won the last election? TWA block voted for her.

John may not win the run-off, why, because TWA will block vote for Laura.

If AA buys another carrier, will you give TWA their seniority? With the new law, any new f/a's will get
their date of hire bidding seniority and TWA will still be at April 10, 2001.

Laura, what did you promise the TWA Flight Attendants for their votes???

 

[nbmcg01]

How do you think Tommie won the last election? TWA block voted for her.

John may not win the run-off, why, because TWA will block vote for Laura.

If AA buys another carrier, will you give TWA their seniority? With the new law, any new f/a's will get
their date of hire bidding seniority and TWA will still be at April 10, 2001.

Laura, what did you promise the TWA Flight Attendants for their votes???

The question should be asked about the RENO f/as too. How quickly you've forgotten that they were stapled also. Only AirCal and Trans Carib were given their seniority.
Are you surprised that the former TWA f/as wouldn't vote for Ward? He gave away furlough pay, botched the concessionary negotiations and cost 1/4th of his membership their jobs. A union's first responsibility is to preserve jobs. He forgot that very important item.

 

[Hunter]

[...] With the new law, any new f/a's will get
their date of hire bidding seniority and TWA will still be at April 10, 2001.

Your post underscores why the campaign of fear and division being waged in the APFA National Officer Elections works so well with this undereducated membership. Yours and too many others misunderstanding of Allegany-Mohawk is readily apparent but I'll hand it to you, that works well for your chosen candidate.

First of all Allegany-Mohawk is not a "new" law. It has been around for decades and was only recently abandon in the late 1970’s with deregulation and the elimination of the Civil Aeronautics Board. As a result, Allegany-Mohawk in some form or another was incorporated into many collective bargaining agreements, including the former TWA flight attendants contract.

Interestingly, it was only recently added to the APFA contract but in an adulterated way that basically says, if AA buys another carrier, APFA retains the right to "staple" the acquired carriers flight attendants. If another carrier buys AA, APFA is afforded all of the rights and protection provided under Allegany-Mohawk. Is it any wonder APFA is the pariah of the labor community?

Allegany-Mohawk does NOT stipulate date of hire as you suggest, rather it requires that the parties participate in a process to determine seniority integration. If two carriers merge or one carrier acquires another, and some kind of seniority integration cannot be mutually agreed upon by the parties, then the matter is submitted to arbitration. The arbitrator resolves the dispute with an integration formula that is based on all of the facts and circumstances. Much of the decision is based on what a carrier brings to the table, ie. routes, aircraft, bases, etc.

Though Allegany-Mohawk may ultimately cause further harm to me personally, it was and is the right way to handle seniority integration. There is a reason nearly every single labor union has a merger policy that resembles what is now legislatively prescribed by this law. Embarrassingly, it was the outrageous behavior of APFA that so thoroughly shocked the consciousness of reasonable people across the industry and throughout the halls of Congress that served as the impetus for seniority integration to once again be legislatively mandated.

Hunter

 

[Ian]

Your post underscores why the campaign of fear and division being waged in the APFA National Officer Elections works so well with this undereducated membership. Yours and too many others misunderstanding of Allegany-Mohawk is readily apparent but I'll hand it to you, that works well for your chosen candidate.

First of all Allegany-Mohawk is not a "new" law. It has been around for decades and was only recently abandon in the late 1970’s with deregulation and the elimination of the Civil Aeronautics Board. As a result, Allegany-Mohawk in some form or another was incorporated into many collective bargaining agreements, including the former TWA flight attendants contract.

Interestingly, it was only recently added to the APFA contract but in an adulterated way that basically says, if AA buys another carrier, APFA retains the right to "staple" the acquired carriers flight attendants. If another carrier buys AA, APFA is afforded all of the rights and protection provided under Allegany-Mohawk. Is it any wonder APFA is the pariah of the labor community?

Allegany-Mohawk does NOT stipulate date of hire as you suggest, rather it requires that the parties participate in a process to determine seniority integration. If two carriers merge or one carrier acquires another, and some kind of seniority integration cannot be mutually agreed upon by the parties, then the matter is submitted to arbitration. The arbitrator resolves the dispute with an integration formula that is based on all of the facts and circumstances. Much of the decision is based on what a carrier brings to the table, ie. routes, aircraft, bases, etc.

Though Allegany-Mohawk may ultimately cause further harm to me personally, it was and is the right way to handle seniority integration. There is a reason nearly every single labor union has a merger policy that resembles what is now legislatively prescribed by this law. Embarrassingly, it was the outrageous behavior of APFA that so thoroughly shocked the consciousness of reasonable people across the industry and throughout the halls of Congress that served as the impetus for seniority integration to once again be legislatively mandated.

Hunter

I was referring to Senator Claire McCaskill's Amendment that became law that would force an airline that is buying another airline to
arbitrate seniority integration issues.

When TWA met with John in January, they (Ms. Daniels and Mr. Hunter) told him that they would all vote for John if he would revisit the seniority issue if AA bought another carrier. Of course, John said no.

You mention, "it was the outrageous behavior of APFA that so thoroughly shocked the consciousness of reasonable people across the industry"
Those that were "outraged" were the TWA Flight Attendant, not the AA Flight Attendants.
If TWA got their full seniority, there would have been 4,100 very happy TWA Flight Attendants and nearly 22,000 very upset AA Flight
Attendants. In 2001, over 50% of all TWA Flight Attendants had over 20 years of service where as only 20 percent of AA Flight Attendants
had over 20 years of service.

Again, What did Laura tell Ms. Daniels and Mr. Hunter that got her the TWA block vote????

Mr. Hunter, are you same TWA Flight Attendant that was hired as a SCAB replacement in 1986?

 

[jimntx]

In 2001, over 50% of all TWA Flight Attendants had over 20 years of service where as only 20 percent of AA Flight Attendants
had over 20 years of service.

My, my. How did we all get so old and so senior so fast? We must have that rapid aging disease--progeria, IIRC. If only 20% of the AA f/as had over 20 years only 6 years ago (counting from April, 2001 to June, 2007 when the latest seniority list was published), how is it that 40% now have 20 or more years as of June, 2007!

Most of the f/as who have retired since 2001 have been very senior; so, if anything the total percentage of those having over 20 years should have dropped, not increased. In 2001, you had to get to #110 on the seniority list to find one that started flying after I started college. Today there are "only" 40 who started before September, 1968.

If the former TWA f/as had been given proportional seniority (which is what they were asking for, not DOH, most of the AA f/as would not have even noticed the relative change in their bidding position. Beside that most of the former TWA f/as would have stayed in STL or JFK; so, the great majority of AA flight attendants would have noticed NO difference in their bidding.

Some of us would have been furloughed sooner--I certainly would have; and some would have been furloughed a little later than they were. Theres is a possibility that if JW had been willing to accept help from the very experienced negotiators from TWA, there might not have been any furloughs at all.

But, that's all water over the dam. Why is it that the TWA issue is continually brought up by JW supporters? All he managed to do is screw those of us who were furloughed out of furlough pay. The public and the Congress was so outraged over the treatment of the former TWA f/as--and remember, at the time they were furloughed their paychecks said AMR Corp. and they were paying dues to the APFA--that APFA will not be able to pull the same stunt in the future.

 

[Ian]

My, my. How did we all get so old and so senior so fast? We must have that rapid aging disease--progeria, IIRC. If only 20% of the AA f/as had over 20 years only 6 years ago (counting from April, 2001 to June, 2007 when the latest seniority list was published), how is it that 40% now have 20 or more years as of June, 2007!

I was talking about the time when AA bought TWA, in 2001.
On November 1, 2001.
TWA F/A's - 4,707
TWA F/A's with 20 or more years of seniority - 2,269 = 48%, not 50%, my mistake.

AA F/A's - 21,977
AA F/A's with 20 or more years of seniority - 4,707 = 21%
(that's 17,270 F/A's hired after Nov. 1981.)

American hired a ton of Flight Attendants during the '90's that were 55+ years old. Yes, many of the
F/A's who are retiring are very senior but, many have only 10 - 15 years of seniority.

I'm all for dropping this TWA seniority issue, it is what it is.
Moving on...

My question again, what did Laura tell the TWA folks that gave her all of their votes?

If the TWA F/A's are still upset with John and the current 18,000 AA F/A's, fine, but why did Ms. Daniels and Mr. Hunter meet with him?
Why wouldn't they just say, screw John Ward and vote for the "other" candidate?
If the TWA F/A's are really mad at APFA, why are they voting at all?

Mr. Hunter, as a base chair, you should have this information and be able to answer the following question:

How many of the ballots counted in the election were set aside because those Flight Attendants were
in dues arrears?

 

[nbmcg01]

I was talking about the time when AA bought TWA, in 2001.
On November 1, 2001.
TWA F/A's - 4,707
TWA F/A's with 20 or more years of seniority - 2,269 = 48%, not 50%, my mistake.

AA F/A's - 21,977
AA F/A's with 20 or more years of seniority - 4,707 = 21%
(that's 17,270 F/A's hired after Nov. 1981.)

American hired a ton of Flight Attendants during the '90's that were 55+ years old. Yes, many of the
F/A's who are retiring are very senior but, many have only 10 - 15 years of seniority.

I'm all for dropping this TWA seniority issue, it is what it is.
Moving on...

My question again, what did Laura tell the TWA folks that gave her all of their votes?

If the TWA F/A's are still upset with John and the current 18,000 AA F/A's, fine, but why did Ms. Daniels and Mr. Hunter meet with him?
Why wouldn't they just say, screw John Ward and vote for the "other" candidate?
If the TWA F/A's are really mad at APFA, why are they voting at all?

Mr. Hunter, as a base chair, you should have this information and be able to answer the following question:

How many of the ballots counted in the election were set aside because those Flight Attendants were
in dues arrears?

1. It would be irresponsible for any representative NOT to interview all candidates. It doesn't mean there are promises. There certainly weren't any with TH-B. That was a vote against Ward. The former TWA f/as are not, nor have they EVER been upset with the 20,000 AA f/as. Why, because there never was any education, there was never a vote on the issue, there was never a mock run to see where it would have all panned out. Instead, there was misinformation, and the ever continuing scare tactics.
I can assure you that 99% of the former TWA f/as would vote against Ward, regardless of any "promises". I don't care who endorsed him. It is what it is. As for dues arrears, that is an issue in any union. Especially when members feel disenfranchised. I became a dues objector with the IAM because of ethical reasons.

2. I would be willing to guess that if Rock had won the vote off, the former TWA votes would go to him. No promises, just a different approach.

3. Tim Hunter is the REAL DEAL. He has become a strong labor advocate, and an excellent union rep. OUR strike was in 1986, and I for one was "out" until the end of May, 1988. We spent a lot of time educating the younger new hires and many of them have become staunch labor activists. I wonder what your numbers would have looked like at 3 weeks, 6 weeks, 6 months, two years. Your walkout was your, and ours was ours. We learned, and we've come to terms. We also learned that unity is the most important factor in entering negotiations. Take this as wise counsel.

4. You keep leaving out RENO. They are in the same boat and would be adversely or positively affected, depending on how any merger/acquisition. As it stands (now), we would all remain at the bottom.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

The stink in "Ian's" posts is reminiscent of the nonsense posted by some of Ward's supporters who have been spewing lies and filth all over the internet and in crew lounges, and on airplanes, all over the system. I watched the debate between Ward and Glading from beginning to end, and when Ward started complaining about a campaign of "sleaze," I had to laugh.

The only sleaze in this campaign comes straight from Ward, the King of Sleaze himself.

 

[L1011Ret]

My question again, what did Laura tell the TWA folks that gave her all of their votes?

If the TWA F/A's are really mad at APFA, why are they voting at all?

I'm shocked at how little you seem to know Ian. Why would TWA folks give Laura all their votes? Have you read the Bass brief? Watched the debate video? Would you vote for JW if he gave your furlough pay away for nothing? Jusy gifted it to AA? Never mind that when TWA and APFA reps met in early 2001 the TWAers were promised no staple by the APFA merger committee which JW quickly disbanded. He then succeeded in whipping the BOD into a frenzy so they screamed, "staple them, staple them." He was in charge of hate crimes. He is a consumate liar who takes no responsibility for the RPA fiasco. Watching him on the witness stand in Federal Court in Brooklyn is to experience a real turn off. As to why do they vote at all, you cannot figure that out? You need help.