April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

Contemplate that a bit longer, oh ye who mightilly strive to become a "favored class" via the nic obscenity. 😉

Methinks your "noble cause" and holy quest for the greed-soaked grail is just so much dust under misguided chariot wheels at this point.

What's to contemplate? NIC slotted by equipment and class integrating seniority by 2:1 east pilots to west pilots after first reserving the top 517 slots for east pilots alone? If there was a favored class with the award it is clearly the top 517 which pushed all west pilots down on the combined list relative to their east peers. Number one on the east list stayed number one on the combined list. Where did number one on the west list end up by using the NIC? Where would he end up using USAPA's DOH scheme?

Perhaps the "noble cause" and holy quest for the greed-soaked grail is just so much dust under misguided chariot wheels" is more fitting for someone who advocates disregarding the results of binding arbitration so as to place furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots, line-holding captains under the peril of a unquestionably ripe DFR. You know the dangerous ground that Silver warned USAPA about?

 

[Claxon]

Where would he end up using USAPA's DOH scheme?

Perhaps the "noble cause" and holy quest for the greed-soaked grail is just so much dust under misguided chariot wheels" is more fitting for someone who advocates disregarding the results of binding arbitration so as to place furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots, line-holding captains under the peril of a unquestionably ripe DFR. You know the dangerous ground that Silver warned USAPA about?

What would be the timeline of your DFR suit from start to finish?

 

[Bill Brasky]

Say the guy that think judge Wake got it wrong and mishandled the case.

What is it. Are judges always right or do they make mistakes?

I think you can read. What does 55(a) say? Is the west asking for money? If not 55(a) does not apply.

Next question which party got the block heading wrong? The west or usapa?

Okay, I guess I have to make THAT exception. Maybe Judge Wake was as incompetent as you AOL weekend lawyers.

Thanks for correcting me. I surely don't want to keep rehashing a losing position over and over again.

Why don't you just be a man and admit that you screwed up and move on?

 

[EastUS1]

What's to contemplate?

Start with this: How many more years worked than yourself does the person that nic would slot just below you have, and just who the hell do you think are you to fantasize that you're "worth" magically becoming "senior" to him/her? 🙂

 

[CallawayGolf]

Start with this: How many more years worked than yourself does the person that nic would slot just below you have, and just who the hell do you think are you to fantasize that you're "worth" magically becoming "senior" to him/her? 🙂

Typical; you ignore my questions but want me to answer yours? My questions were/are:
1) Where is the number one west pilot on the NIC and where would he be on a DOH scheme?
2) Do you think a furloughed pilot at the time of the merger should "magically" become senior to a line-holding captain post SLI?

I played no part in how the NIC list came to be ordered and, like you, can do nothing to change the facts:
1) It was the result of a mutually-agreed upon binding arbitration process
2) It was accepted by the Company per the Transition Agreement as being the completed SLI for all LCC pilots
3) That federal statutes require any bargaining agent to abide by their duty to fairly represent all constituents and to abide by the terms of all contracts in force, including those that were inherited
4) That the west pilots have no control over what USAPA and Management do in JCBA negotiations and cannot stop them without a federal injunction from either fulfilling their lawful duties or abdicating them
5) No pilot can take any spot on any seniority list, higher or lower, by any personal volitional act
6) That Wake, Tashima, Graber, Bybee, and Silver have all issued warning statements to USAPA for any attempt to discard the results of binding arbitration in order to advance east pilots at the harm of west pilots.

 

[Claxon]

Wake, Tashima, Graber, Bybee, and Silver have all issued warning statements to USAPA for any attempt to discard the results of binding arbitration in order to advance east pilots at the harm of west pilots.

What were the warnings issued? Be specific.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Typical; you ignore my questions but want me to answer yours? My questions were/are:

1) Where is the number one west pilot on the NIC and where would he be on a DOH scheme?
Right behind the East pilot hired the day before he was in a DOH scenereo (the one used with EVERY other employee group at US Airways)

2) Do you think a furloughed pilot at the time of the merger should "magically" become senior to a line-holding captain post SLI?
Yep, but he does not take that line-holding capain's postion, that is what conditions and restirictions are for. Not magic. It happened in 3 of the last 4 completed mergers at US Airways, one was the largest in history at the time. The exception was another "Nic." And there are no furloughed pilots on the East. And in the upcoming M/B If APA wants to agree to using furlough time in the the SLI, I don't think that will be problem.

4) That the west pilots have no control over what USAPA and Management do in JCBA negotiations and cannot stop them without a federal injunction from either fulfilling their lawful duties or abdicating them
You have the same control over USAPA and Management that every member in good standing has. So what. Boo Hoo.

5) No pilot can take any spot on any seniority list, higher or lower, by any personal volitional act
You will not leap frog pilots on you OWN CURRENT list in any SLI process: M/B, ALPA, or otherwise. Agreed

6) That Wake, Tashima, Graber, Bybee, and Silver have all issued warning statements to USAPA for any attempt to discard the results of binding arbitration in order to advance east pilots at the harm of west pilots.
Noted. And when the knife is thrust, you can go running back to them for clarification, relief, and damages. No sooner says the Ninth and Silver.

Greeter

 

[CallawayGolf]

Greeter

Did those other groups agree to follow the ALPA merger policy? Did those other groups mutually agree to settle any disputes by binding, third-party arbitration?

Conditions and restrictions may have worked if they had been proposed and accepted prior to arbitration or if they had been included in the results of binding arbitration. Since they weren't a part of the award, they are irrelevant to the conversation concerning USAPA's DFR.

Boo Hoo what? I wasn't complaining. Just stating a fact.

I agree with your last point. The Ninth and Silver are looking for the unquestionably ripe line to be crossed before a DFR will be considered, unless of course the Company's DJ appeal yields a more rational (i.e actionable) result than what the Ninth issued in DFR-1 and Silver issued in DJ-1.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Did those other groups agree to follow the ALPA merger policy? Did those other groups mutually agree to settle any disputes by binding, third-party arbitration?

If you mean by paying dues did I agree, not really sure. But I know I did NOT agree to ALPA refusing to apply its own guidelines to any arbitrated results (no windfalls.) In fact, I did not agree with such disgust that I voted to throw them off the property. Talk about binding, they have not had a penny of my dues now for 5 years.

As to that failed "process" it was never completed, and I never did get that ALPA vote on a JCBA (and thus a new section 22.) And, unlike M/B or even our LOA 93 arbitrations, it was not "Federally binding." I know you disagree, but you have to get a court to tell me I am wrong. So far that is not even coming close to happening, in fact the closer the POR gets the more moot even your own desperate actions become.

You cannot and will not put a new hire pilot ahead of a pilot with seventeen years of unbroken service. How are we doing so far?

Greeter

 

[CallawayGolf]

You cannot and will not put a new hire pilot ahead of a pilot with seventeen years of unbroken service. How are we doing so far?

Greeter

Bottom of the seniority list is the bottom of the seniority list no matter if its days, weeks, months, years or decades. The two bottom active employees on separate lists should go right next to each other on the combined list and then furloughed should go right after those. But that's my opinion and the only one opinion that counted was the one in the binding arbitration award that both parties through their bargaining agents (so yes that includes you).

 

[Claxon]

767Jetz, did you fill out your United Pilots Union card yet?

Opening statement from CAL merger committee. You remember CAL pilot "nuetral" Brucia? He was for longevity for US Airways AWA, but now for something different when it pertains to his hypocrite backside.

April 11, 2013

"I. The Seniority Integration Should Preserve the Pilots’ Career Expectations Based on the Pre-Merger Carriers’ Financial Performance and the Pilots’ Promotional Prospects.

Continental and United were headed in different directions financially when they announced their merger at the end of one of the most difficult decades in the history of the airline industry. Continental earned more than $1.0 billion in operating income from January 2000 through September 2010, while United lost $7.8 billion.

Continental’s performance shines a light on one facet of the financial solidity that it has maintained, largely through shifting capacity to more lucrative international markets ahead of the industry. Continental flew a greater percentage of its block hours internationally at the time of the merger than United or any other U.S. airline. These facts illustrate the reality that the Continental pilots had better career expectations than their United counterparts in 2010, and in the decade leading up to the merger. Unlike the United pilots, the Continental pilots flew for a financially stable airline."

This will bring down ALPA. The battle is beginning.

United pilots want out now.
http://unitedpilotsunion.org/

 

[nic4us]

Start with this: How many more years worked than yourself does the person that nic would slot just below you have, and just who the hell do you think are you to fantasize that you're "worth" magically becoming "senior" to him/her? 🙂

Took your advice and it turns out the guy both one senior and one junior to me have exactly the same number of years worked and they are both younger than me....

Just who the hell do they think they are getting a big relative bump in seniority and ending up with the same seniority as someone ( i.e. Myself) who took a relative seniority loss at their expense?

 

[nic4us]

Greeter

Hey Greeter, you know what is different about this merger than the the 3 of 4 past mergers and seniority integrations?

This time AWA was the acquiring airline!

You are lucky to even have a job, and the fact that you started a scab union to steal others is indefensible.

 

[Beancounter]

Pilots Union Update

The Delta Pilots Association is within 100 signature cards of a certification vote! This is significant when you think about the United Pilots being the only major airline left in ALPA. read more
Is it fair for the United Pilots to be left holding the bag and paying for ALPA's failure in the TWA lawsuit? It looks like the damages trial is set to take place later this year and the result is almost certain to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars which ALPA cannot pay without assessing its members.
Subsidizing union representation for the ALPA regional pilots just took on a completely different meaning with the exodus of the Delta Pilots. The Delta pilots contribute $38 million dollars each year to ALPA: how does ALPA replace this kind of money?
If you thought ALPA's legislative agenda was ineffective before, just wait until the Delta Pilots (DPA) team up with the American Pilots (APA) and join CAPA.
It's time to ensure that the United Pilots will have responsible, accountable union representation that protects the United Pilots. It's time we get serious about protecting the Major Airline Pilots' career and supporting a sustained legislative agenda that does just that.
We have a long way to go and a lot of work to do to collect 6,300 signature cards. Visit us at www.unitedpilotsunion.org and see how you can help.
The United Pilots Union

Thanks for sharing. Could this be the begining of the end for ALPA? Yep. Do you start to see why the company and APA will have no part in your attempt to ignore the precedent of an arbitration and staple the west with DOH?

Bean

 

[traderjake]

You cannot and will not put a new hire pilot ahead of a pilot with seventeen years of unbroken service. How are we doing so far?

You cannot and will not put a pilot who only holds Reserve F/O ahead of a Captain on the same airplane.