Arpey And Apfa Talking Cooperation

[Mach85ER]

I would not survive a month in crew skd with attendance records that I see on a daily basis.

[post="311753"][/post]​

Garfield,

While I won't dispute or excuse the shenanigans you and your fellow crew schedulers deal with, I will mention that I have visited your work area in SOC many times and probably only in 5% of my sick calls in my history at AA would I have been ill enough to stay home from working a shift at a CS desk.

 

[jimntx]

Wow, keep talking like that and they will think you work in crew skd with me. 

[edited for length.]
I would not survive a month in crew skd with attendance records that I see on a daily basis.

[post="311753"][/post]​

Gar, you need to remember that it is not your job OR MINE to decide whether or not a sick call is valid or not. I agree that someone who is sick EVERY Christmas, and EVERY New Years and EVERY time their child has a birthday, etc., is suspect. However, neither you nor I are medical professionals.

You also have to realize that the company has brought the current situation upon itself through past practices. An FSM (flight service manager) happens to like a particular f/a so they allow that person to abuse the system. So, when the f/a who the FSM happens to dislike is moved to pre-termination, it's no big deal for the union to pull records and show that the FSM is not applying the rules equally or fairly. And, I can tell you from my years at Texaco, it does not have to be a union situation for the company to lose in a termination suit. If the Senior on duty let's you call in sick every other week because the two of you are poker buddies, and he or she tries to terminate another scheduler the first time they run out of sick leave, the company will lose the lawsuit that ensues. Trust me. Workplace favoritism and unequal application of the rules is way too easy to prove.

Or, the FSM tells the f/a something totally incorrect about FMLA (a situation that the new system should correct)...the company is not going to win a termination arbitration if the company representative has given the f/a incorrect information about the law.

And, there are FSMs who are just plain lazy. It's too much trouble to document the conferences with the f/a or even call them in for a coaching and counseling session. Right before I was furloughed, I flew with f/a at DFW who was in a panic because her FSM had called her in to "talk about her attendance." Now, don't get me wrong, she was a very nice person and an excellent f/a. In addition, she had 5 children, all under the age of 15; so, let's face it there are going to be crises.

However...she showed me her HI10. In just the past 3 years, she had had 15 or 20 sick days, 5 or 6 missed trips, and countless late sign-ins. She told me that she had never been called in before and she was scared (she had 15 years seniority). I don't believe she was lying. She should have been moved to (at least) the coaching and counseling level long before this time.

Also, you can not apply what would justify a scheduler calling in sick to what might apply for a f/a. You can dose up and come to work with a cold. If it's a head cold, and my ears are blocked, the company does not permit me to fly. You might be able to just ask people to speak up a little. I run the risk of burst eardrums. (Well, not me personally. I haven't had a sick day since April, 2001.) If you are on prescription pain medication for an abscessed tooth, you might be able to come to work. The Feds don't like crew members on the a/c while "under the influence" of such medications.

 

[nbmcg01]

Gar, you need to remember that it is not your job OR MINE to decide whether or not a sick call is valid or not.  I agree that someone who is sick EVERY Christmas, and EVERY New Years and EVERY time their child has a birthday, etc., is suspect.  However, neither you nor I are medical professionals.

You also have to realize that the company has brought the current situation upon itself through past practices.  An FSM (flight service manager) happens to like a particular f/a so they allow that person to abuse the system.  So, when the f/a who the FSM happens to dislike is moved to pre-termination, it's no big deal for the union to pull records and show that the FSM is not applying the rules equally or fairly.  And, I can tell you from my years at Texaco, it does not have to be a union situation for the company to lose in a termination suit.  If the Senior on duty let's you call in sick every other week because the two of you are poker buddies, and he or she tries to terminate another scheduler the first time they run out of sick leave, the company will lose the lawsuit that ensues.  Trust me.  Workplace favoritism and unequal application of the rules is way too easy to prove.

Or, the FSM tells the f/a something totally incorrect about FMLA (a situation that the new system should correct)...the company is not going to win a termination arbitration if  the company representative has given the f/a incorrect information about the law.

And, there are FSMs who are just plain lazy.  It's too much trouble to document the conferences with the f/a or even call them in for a coaching and counseling session.  Right before I was furloughed, I flew with f/a at DFW who was in a panic because her FSM had called her in to "talk about her attendance."  Now, don't get me wrong, she was a very nice person and an excellent f/a.  In addition, she had 5 children, all under the age of 15; so, let's face it there are going to be crises. 

However...she showed me her HI10.  In just the past 3 years, she had had 15 or 20 sick days, 5 or 6 missed trips, and countless late sign-ins.  She told me that she had never been called in before and she was scared (she had 15 years seniority).  I don't believe she was lying.  She should have been moved to (at least) the coaching and counseling level long before this time.

Also, you can not apply what would justify a scheduler calling in sick to what might apply for a f/a.  You can dose up and come to work with a cold.  If it's a head cold, and my ears are blocked, the company does not permit me to fly.  You might be able to just ask people to speak up a little.  I run the risk of burst eardrums.  (Well, not me personally.  I haven't had a sick day since April, 2001.)  If you are on prescription pain medication for an abscessed tooth, you might be able to come to work.  The Feds don't like crew members on the a/c while "under the influence" of such medications.

[post="311780"][/post]​

Just another point of view..There are many reasons a f/a cannot fly that would not affect someone with a ground job. Broken bones, bad cold, blocked ears, no voice, maternity issues, just to name a few. When I was in the training center I always had perfect attendance. Same with my years as a full time union rep. Flight crews cannot schedule their illnesses to "fit" their days off and the more poorly and ineffectively a f/a is scheduled, the less days at home to heal, get sick, and recooperate. As for holidays..there will always be some that just don't come to work (in any position) but there are also those in the f/a rank, that because of seniority, have to fly every holiday with Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years falling in the heart of flu season. At TWA, our mangt. could take a vacation day or personal day to cover illnesses so of course they always had perfect attendance. F/a contracts do not allow for such flexibility. We also had the option of calling a supervisor and asking IF staffing allowed, that we be allowed to take a day(or as many needed to cover a trip) called AWD. Absence without pay.discretionary. ie, days off..no pay but no charge to sick bank. Funny but when AA "took over", they went back and converted our AWD to POs and put several in the attendance program even though we hadn't been under AAs "rules". So my friends, f/a off duty is not always as clear cut as some might make it appear.
If AA wants to cut money, my first suggestion would be the "nurse line" and a good portion of Medical. What a waste..

 

[B.O.B.]

It's against the law to fire an employee for being out sick. If any employee has a Doctor's note stating they have been seen for their illness and excused for work, AA can't do a damn thing about it. If you get fired from AA and have a legal letter form your Doctor, then AA has just shot its self in the foot.

AA is not going to fire you for being sick. If you get fired from AA, you can collect unemployment! In some states, you can collect after 30 days. Not only has AA fired you for being sick, they now have you collecting unemployment. Also, you file a NOD and get your job back in 6 months with full backpay and no loss of seniority.

As far as the concessions go...

AA can kiss my a**! Let them threaten to file BK. How hard is it to vote no? Just take that damn pen in your hand and fill in the arrow that points to NO on your ballot. It's the wussies that have no balls and believe everything the company says that vote yes. Get some balls and stand up to the corporate greed and vote NO!

 

[nbmcg01]

It's against the law to fire an employee for being out sick. If any employee has a Doctor's note stating they have been seen for their illness and excused for work, AA can't do a damn thing about it. If you get fired from AA and have a legal letter form your Doctor, then AA has just shot its self in the foot.

AA is not going to fire you for being sick. If you get fired from AA, you can collect unemployment! In some states, you can collect after 30 days. Not only has AA fired you for being sick, they now have you collecting unemployment. Also, you file a NOD and get your job back in 6 months with full backpay and no loss of seniority.

As far as the concessions go...

AA can kiss my a**! Let them threaten to file BK. How hard is it to vote no? Just take that damn pen in your hand and fill in the arrow that points to NO on your ballot. It's the wussies that have no balls and believe everything the company says that vote yes. Get some balls and stand up to the corporate greed and vote NO!

[post="311976"][/post]​

It is not called being fired for being sick. It is a "dependability" issue. Under AAs rules if you're out more than a couple of days, you can be charged with 2 occurances IF you don't call the "nurse line". It doesn't matter whether you have a Drs. note. There is a difference between suspected abuse and chargable times. Suspected abuse is a potentially terminating offense. Chronic absenteeism can fall into several different categories. Some are covered by FMLA and some are not. Unlike most other businesses, there is no category for a child's illness (such as an unpaid day or being able to use your sick days) and so many parents (male and/or female) wind up calling off on a personal illness. Again, because of the nature of flight crew schedules, not all instances can be "scheduled" to occur on days off. AAs attendance "rules" are archaic and lead to abuse. Pure and simple.

 

[jimntx]

It's against the law to fire an employee for being out sick. If any employee has a Doctor's note stating they have been seen for their illness and excused for work, AA can't do a damn thing about it. If you get fired from AA and have a legal letter form your Doctor, then AA has just shot its self in the foot.

AA is not going to fire you for being sick. If you get fired from AA, you can collect unemployment! In some states, you can collect after 30 days. Not only has AA fired you for being sick, they now have you collecting unemployment. Also, you file a NOD and get your job back in 6 months with full backpay and no loss of seniority.

I find that level of naivete refreshing in someone your age! It is not against the law to fire someone for being sick. It is against the law for firing someone for being sick before they have exhausted their sick leave (assuming your company grants sick leave) and before they have exhausted their FMLA-mandated 12 weeks of unpaid leave--which does not apply to all companies. But, once all that runs out, you can be terminated. There is no law that says an employer has to keep you on its rolls--paid or unpaid--indefinitely.

So what on the unemployment? The company paid the payroll tax that would make you eligible for unemployment (and pays your benefits) at least 2 calendar quarters ago. And, with the number of people that AA has had filing over the past 4 years, it will be awhile before their "experience-rated" tax rate drops below the maximum tax. Don't bother trying to tell me I am wrong here. I worked for the Texas Employment Commission (now called the Texas Workforce Commission--same agency, different name) for 7 years, and even though that was over 20 years ago, the Federal law underlying Unemployment Compensation has not changed appreciably since 1934 except to change the tax rates and expand the list of workers covered under it.

I love it when people think that being a union member guarantees that the company can never fire you. The only time the company loses a termination arbitration is when someone on the management side has not done their documentation job. Granted, that happens a lot, but the company is also getting rid of managers who are too lazy to do their jobs. If you have been fired for cause, and the proof is there, you will NOT get your job back.

As far as the concessions go...

AA can kiss my a**! Let them threaten to file BK. How hard is it to vote no? Just take that damn pen in your hand and fill in the arrow that points to NO on your ballot. It's the wussies that have no balls and believe everything the company says that vote yes. Get some balls and stand up to the corporate greed and vote NO!

Yeah, that will show them. And, I bet it will work as well at AA as it did at UAL, DL, US Airways, and Northwest. AMFA really put a crimp in Northwest's flying, didn't they? Do you think that AMR would not hesitate to file for bankruptcy if the other choice was to go out of business? The bankruptcy court is not your friend. As an employee, you are at the bottom of the unsecured creditors list. That means you get paid after everyone else AND their dog.

Don't get me wrong. I am not PRO-concessions. I'm just a realist. It has been shown time and time again that raising ticket prices will not work because one or more airlines will not go along with the increase--though that is happening less and less. The money to pay for the jet fuel has to come from somewhere.

And, as I said in my original post, I don't think that the concessions will take the form of pay cuts. It will be in work rules and getting rid of people who don't want to work then recalling people who do.

 

[B.O.B.]

Thanks for you health concerns, I never would have guessed donuts were bad for you. Did they teach you that in Barbie bootcamp?

Thanks for proving my case.......again and again.

I find that level of naivete refreshing in someone your age! It is not against the law to fire someone for being sick. It is against the law for firing someone for being sick before they have exhausted their sick leave (assuming your company grants sick leave) and before they have exhausted their FMLA-mandated 12 weeks of unpaid leave--which does not apply to all companies. But, once all that runs out, you can be terminated. There is no law that says an employer has to keep you on its rolls--paid or unpaid--indefinitely.

So what on the unemployment? The company paid the payroll tax that would make you eligible for unemployment (and pays your benefits) at least 2 calendar quarters ago. And, with the number of people that AA has had filing over the past 4 years, it will be awhile before their "experience-rated" tax rate drops below the maximum tax. Don't bother trying to tell me I am wrong here. I worked for the Texas Employment Commission (now called the Texas Workforce Commission--same agency, different name) for 7 years, and even though that was over 20 years ago, the Federal law underlying Unemployment Compensation has not changed appreciably since 1934 except to change the tax rates and expand the list of workers covered under it.

I love it when people think that being a union member guarantees that the company can never fire you. The only time the company loses a termination arbitration is when someone on the management side has not done their documentation job. Granted, that happens a lot, but the company is also getting rid of managers who are too lazy to do their jobs. If you have been fired for cause, and the proof is there, you will NOT get your job back.
Yeah, that will show them. And, I bet it will work as well at AA as it did at UAL, DL, US Airways, and Northwest. AMFA really put a crimp in Northwest's flying, didn't they? Do you think that AMR would not hesitate to file for bankruptcy if the other choice was to go out of business? The bankruptcy court is not your friend. As an employee, you are at the bottom of the unsecured creditors list. That means you get paid after everyone else AND their dog.

Don't get me wrong. I am not PRO-concessions. I'm just a realist. It has been shown time and time again that raising ticket prices will not work because one or more airlines will not go along with the increase--though that is happening less and less. The money to pay for the jet fuel has to come from somewhere.

And, as I said in my original post, I don't think that the concessions will take the form of pay cuts. It will be in work rules and getting rid of people who don't want to work then recalling people who do.

Continue to drink the compAAny juice. It seems you're pro-compAAny and not pro-union! If you're a "realist" then stand up and say NO! Just remember we still have to vote on work rule changes!! You talk like a pro-compAAny employee and that really sucks!

Actually in California, it is against the law to fire someone for being sick. Even if you have exhausted all of your FMLA and any other type of medical leave. You may want to check you sources because, an LAX FA was terminated for being sick and had a Doctor's note. She filed a NOD and got her job back 7 months later. Yes, AA management did all of the paperwork correctly! She received full back pay and didn't lose any seniority. AA has to go off what state you pay taxes in, not what state you're based in.

 

[jimntx]

She received full back pay and didn't lose any seniority. AA has to go off what state you pay taxes in, not what state you're based in.

Oh, we can all point to one or two cases where the company lost in a grievance. That does not mean that they lose all cases. And, by the way that last statement is wrong. As far as the Federal government is concerned, you work where you are based. If you commute that is of no consequence. That is why f/as who are based in LGA have to pay New York state and city income tax, even if they commute from Texas which has NO income tax.

Living somewhere other than your base city is a privilege that the company grants you. There are airlines out there that require you to provide an address in your base city--while you are on probation. All of your company correspondence goes to that address.

And, you can name call all you want. I've noticed that some posters here resort to that lame tactic when confronted with facts instead of galley gossip and "my best friend's hairdresser's next door neighbor's aunt works for AA and she said" kind of hearsay.

And, 99% of the time in the past when the company has lost a termination grievance involving sick leave, it is because the company representative--usually the Flight Service Manager--miscalculated FMLA benefits. That's why the company is centralizing that function.

But, that's ok. You go ahead believing that you can not be fired. It will give you great comfort while you are waiting at the Unemployment Compensation office for your interview. They will be MOST interested to here your interpretation of employment law (not).

 

[Garfield1966]

Jim,

All your points are well taken HOWEVER, until someone can explain to me why the sick list doubles every year (like clock work) during the holidays you will not get any sympathy from me.

Statically that means that 50% of the FA’s on the sick list are not sick and I imagine that applies to the other work groups out there as well. Also, I think that the excuse of “this company caused …â€￾ is just that, an excuse. I have been in crew skd for over 7 years. I was there when everyone was getting raises and big profit sharing checks. The sick list has always gone through the roof during the holidays.

People need to be held accountable for their actions both on the FA side as well as all the other work groups.

 

[jimntx]

Jim,

All your points are well taken HOWEVER, until someone can explain to me why the sick list doubles every year (like clock work) during the holidays you will not get any sympathy from me.

Statically that means that 50% of the FA’s on the sick list are not sick and I imagine that applies to the other work groups out there as well. Also, I think that the excuse of “this company caused …â€￾ is just that, an excuse. I have been in crew skd for over 7 years. I was there when everyone was getting raises and big profit sharing checks. The sick list has always gone through the roof during the holidays.

People need to be held accountable for their actions both on the FA side as well as all the other work groups.

Garfield, you missed my point. The point is found in your last sentence. Yes, people should be held accountable for their actions, and it is the COMPANY that has to do that. My point was that people abuse the sick leave policy because they have been allowed to do it for years. It is company management that needs to take steps to correct that abuse, not you, and not me.

By the way, I don't need your sympathy. As I said, I haven't taken a sick day since April, 2001--and that was forced on me by AA Medical. I also have never had a late sign-in or a missed trip, but that is because I do take responsibility for my actions.

 

[nbmcg01]

Garfield, you missed my point. The point is found in your last sentence. Yes, people should be held accountable for their actions, and it is the COMPANY that has to do that. My point was that people abuse the sick leave policy because they have been allowed to do it for years. It is company management that needs to take steps to correct that abuse, not you, and not me.

By the way, I don't need your sympathy. As I said, I haven't taken a sick day since April, 2001--and that was forced on me by AA Medical. I also have never had a late sign-in or a missed trip, but that is because I do take responsibility for my actions.

Maybe AA should plan for winter weather, the flu, the "flu", and perhaps not extend people over Christmas and New Years...I had 30 + years without a late sign in or missed trip but as I stated in a previous post, people get sick and there are many reasons, not all are "fakin'". Abuse is one thing, being ill another. It is the Company responsibility to address abuse. ps..never lost a termination grievance

 

[B.O.B.]

Oh, we can all point to one or two cases where the company lost in a grievance. That does not mean that they lose all cases. And, by the way that last statement is wrong. As far as the Federal government is concerned, you work where you are based. If you commute that is of no consequence. That is why f/as who are based in LGA have to pay New York state and city income tax, even if they commute from Texas which has NO income tax.

You're very wrong on that point!! I live in CA and don't pay New York State or city income tax. In fact none of my friends who commute from CA pay NY taxes. Maybe you do because of the Texas no tax deal. If you don't believe me, maybe we can meet for coffee and I can show you my epays stub.

You only pay taxes from the state you have legal residence. It does not go by what state you're based in. It is your choice to live in NY or TX or CA and fly out of LGA. They tax you by the address you have on file with AA.

 

[jimntx]

I think we are all arguing the same side of the question, just from different viewpoints. When I was a computer consultant, I would get similar situations all the time.

The guy from Accounting would say, "If A happens, the system must always do B."
The guy from Marketing would say, "If A happens, the system must never do B."

When I got them in the same room together, it would usually turn out that they both wanted the same outcome, but they were looking at it from opposite sides of the transaction.

I think we all agree that the sick leave system has been and is being abused by some flight attendants--and some of them are doing it because they've done it for years and the company management lets them get away with it. That is someone else's battle to fight.

We must also agree that not everyone who calls in sick on Christmas is faking. Garfield, you have to remember that the work environment for the flight attendant is an aluminum tube shut up with every sick person in North America. You don't know how many times I have heard (in my vast career of almost 4 years), "No, I don't think running a fever of 103 is any reason to change my travel plans. It's important for me to go visit my family at Christmas." Those same people then spend the entire flight hacking and coughing without covering their mouths. If you hand them a Kleenex as a hint, they use it once and then stuff it in the seatback pocket.

 

[B.O.B.]

Garfield, you missed my point. The point is found in your last sentence. Yes, people should be held accountable for their actions, and it is the COMPANY that has to do that. My point was that people abuse the sick leave policy because they have been allowed to do it for years. It is company management that needs to take steps to correct that abuse, not you, and not me.

By the way, I don't need your sympathy. As I said, I haven't taken a sick day since April, 2001--and that was forced on me by AA Medical. I also have never had a late sign-in or a missed trip, but that is because I do take responsibility for my actions.

Oh look a perfect flight attendant! Wow, did you get a perfect attendance pass for your good attendance?

I don't abuse the SK policy either. But if I am sick or my kids are, I will call in sick and use my earned SK time. I look forward to seeing what you do with your SK time when you leave the company. Are you just going to give back all of your SK hours and say bye? I will bet that you will burn each and every hour until it's gone. Why? Because AA will not pay you for the unused SK time.

 

[jimntx]

Oh look a perfect flight attendant! Wow, did you get a perfect attendance pass for your good attendance?

I don't abuse the SK policy either. But if I am sick or my kids are, I will call in sick and use my earned SK time. I look forward to seeing what you do with your SK time when you leave the company. Are you just going to give back all of your SK hours and say bye? I will bet that you will burn each and every hour until it's gone. Why? Because AA will not pay you for the unused SK time.

I didn't "burn" my sick leave when I left any of my other jobs, why should I burn it at AA? Sick leave is not an entitlement for you, me, or anyone else. No company is required to grant you paid sick leave. It is a benefit to used WHEN NEEDED. I am rarely sick; and I am also old enough to know that I might have health problems down the road that might require more than just a day or two off; so, I don't use it just because I don't like the line I held this month. At my seniority I would need a LOT more sick leave if I wanted to use that excuse.

I don't use things that don't belong to me or that I am not entitled to, but that's just me. What I don't understand is why you are so angry about something that you have no control over? The company either will or it will not ask us for further concessions. If they do, and we vote no, then they would probably follow the lead of the other majors, go into bankruptcy and impose even worse concessions on us. Recognizing that fact does not make me pro-company or anti-union.

And, if you are fairly junior as I am, there is no point in not accepting the fact that the APFA will not hesitate to throw me under the bus again if it saves the senior people 10 cents an hour. I was furloughed without furlough pay just because APFA wanted to "punish" the former TWA flight attendants for the fact that the company gave them pay seniority. I just happened to be what the Pentagon euphemistically calls collateral damage.

And, since the APFA approach seems to be to pretend it's not happening until they get the letter from the company, and makes no attempt to develop counter-offers in advance, or to go to the company and offer non-monetary concessions in return for no furloughs...well, let's just say I'm not betting the mortgage payment on APFA protecting my job.