AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

Selfish? The F/O's get raises as well. Or did USAPA tell you something different?

You missed the point.

 

[cactusboy53]

I've no union position nor any power to act on such a notion in any case but; I'd personally say that your group, whilst merrily striving to usurp many years of others' work lives...well...have made of yourselves a rather understandably unsympathetic cause out east. It's been and is continually made extremely clear that this enmity flows both ways. I certainly disagreed with the elevation of legal action to the attempted level of a criminal rico prosecution...but again...no small number out west, because of their actions (phone jamming/"mailings"/etc), most certainly were fully deserving of some unkind attention....to say the least.

The west contingent largely tried to avoid paying legally required dues in the first place....and only complied when facing firings. This too failed to impress me personally, as it's my belief that anyone holding truly principled objections should carry them out to whatever ending ever takes place. Had you gents and ladies stood as a group, gone all-in with the issue, taken your chances and simply said "screw you!..fire us all then!"...you would have earned my honest respect...but...you didn't, and instead, folded up entirely on the issue. If it's your feeling that witholding dues is again appropriate...well...it's really none of my business to suggest what to do.

Seriously; just how much of a free ride through life should anyone truly feel entitled to? 😉

More like merrily defending ourselves. We signed on the dotted line for a process that we followed (as did all other parties). I'm sorry for you lose(s), but WE are unwilling to help you recover your career with OUR seniority.

AWA arrived with 142 airplanes. We were hiring, upgrading, getting MORE airplanes, etc. In the very beginning we felt somewhat sorry for you all. Not so much anymore.

BTW....Not a free ride. My upgrade has been postponed indefinitely because we tied up to the Titanic. We not only pay for your actions against us, but we have had to privately pay for our defense. Ultimately, we will prevail (IMHO): Logic, common sense, and law say as such.

I'm not sour, just SUPREMELY disappointed in many east pilots continued lack of integrity.

CB

 

[nevergiveup]

More like merrily defending ourselves. We signed on the dotted line for a process that we followed (as did all other parties). I'm sorry for you lose(s), but WE are unwilling to help you recover your career with OUR seniority.

AWA arrived with 142 airplanes. We were hiring, upgrading, getting MORE airplanes, etc. In the very beginning we felt somewhat sorry for you all. Not so much anymore.

BTW....Not a free ride. My upgrade has been postponed indefinitely because we tied up to the Titanic. We not only pay for your actions against us, but we have had to privately pay for our defense. Ultimately, we will prevail (IMHO): Logic, common sense, and law say as such.

I'm not sour, just SUPREMELY disappointed in many east pilots continued lack of integrity.

CB

Sorry about your upgrade. Welcome to the airlines!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The NIC integrated two separate seniority lists into one so this affirms the point I don't think you intended to make. The only deviation from this was to protect the top 517 east pilots flying WB which results in every west pilot losing seniority status in relation to their east counterparts with an equivalent pre-merger status. The east gained seniority at the expense of the west under the NIC but that just wasn't good enough for those who wanted to go from a furloughed status to a line-holding captain by displacing a line-holding west captain and pushing him as far down the list as possible.

Let me tell you what the NIC didn't do, it didn't protect EAST pilots from the "WEST " meltdown and eventual "SHUTDOWN", your base will close and displacements will follow been there seen it, lived it, go peddle your BS, somewhere else! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

More like merrily defending ourselves. We signed on the dotted line for a process that we followed (as did all other parties). I'm sorry for you lose(s), but WE are unwilling to help you recover your career with OUR seniority.

AWA arrived with 142 airplanes. We were hiring, upgrading, getting MORE airplanes, etc. In the very beginning we felt somewhat sorry for you all. Not so much anymore.

BTW....Not a free ride. My upgrade has been postponed indefinitely because we tied up to the Titanic. We not only pay for your actions against us, but we have had to privately pay for our defense. Ultimately, we will prevail (IMHO): Logic, common sense, and law say as such.

I'm not sour, just SUPREMELY disappointed in many east pilots continued lack of integrity.

CB

Cry me a WYE RIVER, hope your DECK CHAIR is comfortable! MM!

 

[CallawayGolf]

Let me tell you what the NIC didn't do, it didn't protect EAST pilots from the "WEST " meltdown and eventual "SHUTDOWN", your base will close and displacements will follow been there seen it, lived it, go peddle your BS, somewhere else! MM!

Is that what the east pilots asked for in arbitration or did they just demand DOH even when the arbitrator asked for a more reasonable proposal? Now that the NIC has been awarded and will not be amended you want protection from base closures and west pilots exercising their seniority position system-wide. That's not how the process works; you don't get to see what the award says and then ask for additional benefits when you the award doesn't give you what you want. What would you have asked for anyway? Would it have been a five-year fence starting May of 2007?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Is that what the east pilots asked for in arbitration or did they just demand DOH even when the arbitrator asked for a more reasonable proposal? Now that the NIC has been awarded and will not be amended you want protection from base closures and west pilots exercising their seniority position system-wide. That's not how the process works; you don't get to see what the award says and then ask for additional benefits when you the award doesn't give you what you want. What would you have asked for anyway? Would it have been a five-year fence starting May of 2007?

You make my point, DOH, the only "REAL METHODOLOGY"! Protects all parties from more of the BS you just spewed! MM!

 

[nic4us]

nic to answer your question without wasting bandwidth on a quote yes it was in our CBA in DOH
while I won't pretend to understand the ins and outs of pilot bidding why wouldn't a person with more seniority be able to bid the higher paying A/C types etc?

A person with more seniority can bid and hold the higher paying A/C types. In the case for the LCC pilots the West pilots who held higher paying captain positions had more SENIORITY than the less paid east F/Os and furloughees.

What usapa is trying to do would be strip the West pilots of their seniority and positions, and then award them to less senior east pilots, who prior to the merger could not even hold a job, much less a captain seat that paid more than an east captain seat.


If all pilot jobs were the same, it would not have been that big a deal for the arbitrator to award a DOH list with just minimum protections, and he probably would have, just as in the dispatchers case. But for the pilots, no arbitrator tasked with coming up with a fair and equitable integration is going to place individuals who are unemployed ahead of the highest paid pilots in the company.

 

[nic4us]

Doesn't the "EAST ATTRITION TRAIN" start its schedule soon, working its way through the 330 delivery schedule? MM

The east attrition train leaves the platform on the same day as the West's.

Small hint for ya MM...

If Silver rules in a manner favorable for usapa..you won't like what the West is going to do.....

But, if Silver rules in a manner favorable for the West....you are really not going to like what the West is going to do.

 

[nic4us]

Sounds as selfish as the west! I would never sell out my FO for a pay raise. Would you?

I would never abet a scab in stealing my new found co-workers position..Would you?

 

[CallawayGolf]

You make my point, DOH, the only "REAL METHODOLOGY"! Protects all parties from more of the BS you just spewed! MM!

If DOH is the 'only "REAL METHODOLOGY"!' then when was the last time it was used in a pilot seniority list integration and what method has been used in the past decade? The point is moot since binding arbitration between AAA/HP pilots did not return DOH (so there is more than one methodology), but please explain how a west line-holding captain is one of the protected parties using straight DOH as you claim?

Of course you could always become an arbitrator and ensure that your methodologies are employed in future pilot SLIs. Here's one list of qualifications:

a. Minimum of 10 years of senior-level business or professional experience or legal practice.
b. Educational degree(s) and/or professional license(s) appropriate to your field of expertise.
c. Honors, awards and citations indicating leadership in your field.
d. Training or experience in arbitration and/or other forms of dispute resolution.
e. Membership in a professional association(s).
f. Other relevant experience or accomplishments (e.g. published articles).

Or you can just compare yourself to George Nicolau to see if your opinion carries more weight in arbitration than his does:

UMPIRESHIPS: Industry Chairman, League of Voluntary Hospitals/1199
National Health & Human Services Employees Union (1993--); International
Ice Hockey Federation/National Hockey League (2000--); National
Basketball Association Agency Regulations (1986--); Impartial Member,
New York City Office of Collective Bargaining (1987- ); New York City
Transit Authority & Transit Supervisors Organization, TWU (1995--);
Mediation Chairman, Dispute Resolution Protocol, American Airlines/Allied
Pilots Association (1999--).

Chairman, Major League Baseball/Major League Baseball Players Ass’n.
(1986-1995); National Hockey League/NHL Players Ass’n. (1993-1996);
National Basketball Association & NBA Players Ass’n. (1979-1981); Major
Indoor Soccer League & MISL Players Ass’n. (1980- ); NBC & NABET,
(Washington 1976-87, New York & Chicago 1980-1987); ABC & NABET
(New York, Washington & Chicago 1980-1987); Tanker Service Committee
& District No. 4, NMU/MEBA (1991 -1998); Maritime Service Committee &
NMU/MEBA (1991 -1998); Tanker Service & Dry Cargo Service Committees
& MEBA-No. 1, Pacific Coast Division (1999-2003); Local 144, SEIU &
Southern New York Health Care Facilities Ass’n. (1988-92).
PANELS: Alaska Airlines & ALPA/AFA/IAM/AMFA/TWU; Aloha Airlines &
ALPA/AFA; American Eagle Airlines & ALPA/AFA; Continental Airlines &
ALPA/IBT; Delta Airlines & ALPA; Northwest Airlines & ALPA; United
Airlines & ALPA/AFA; UPS & Independent Pilots Association; Actors Equity
Association & League of American Theatres & Producers/League of Off-
Broadway Theatres & Producers; Writers Guild/Directors Guild &
MMPA/ABC/CBS/NBC; SAG & MMPA; New York Times & Newspaper Guild
of New York; CSX & MEBA; UPS & IBT (National Panel); Verizon NY/ NJ/
PA/VA,WVA & CWA/IBEW; Bell South & CWA; AT&T & CWA; AT&T &
CWA/IBEW (Neutrality and Consent Election Agreement); City of New York
& PBA/Sergeants Benevolent Association; New York Shipping Association
& ILA; Independent Film & Television Alliance; UAL & AFA (Grievance
Mediation Panel—New York Domicile).


Former Panel Member: Pan Am World Airways & ALPA; Pan Am &
Independent Union of Flight Attendants; TWA & ALPA, TWA &
Independent Federation of Flight Attendants; City University of New York
& Professional Staff Congress.

PROFESSIONAL AFFILIATIONS: President, National Academy of
Arbitrators (1996-97); President-Elect (1995-96), Vice President (1992-
94), Executive Committee (1988-89, 1992-94), Board of Governors (1986-
89); Member (1975-); Charter Member, International Society of
Professionals in Dispute Resolution (1973), Member, Board of Directors
(1984-87) and President (1987-88); Member, International Society for
Labor Law & Social Security (1980-), Executive Board, American Branch
(1995-); Vice Chairman, U.S. Branch & Member, International Executive
Committee (2000-); Board of Directors, College of Labor & Employment
Lawyers (2000-2006); Member, Association of the Bar of the City of New
York (1951-), Chairman, Committee on Labor & Employment Legislation
(1972-75); Member, ABA; Industrial Relations Research Association, and
Panels of AAA, FMCS, New York State PERB and New York City Office of
Collective Bargaining.

 

[nic4us]

Selfish? The F/O's get raises as well. Or did USAPA tell you something different?

Don't you remember luvn??...usapa told them they could have your seniority for a "cost neutral" contract.

Who needs a raise when you can steal another man's better paying job?

 

[luvn737s]

Sorry about your upgrade. Welcome to the airlines!

That's the sort of glib response you'd expect from someone who drove their POS rusted out 74 LTD straight into the side of your family's minivan so that they could grab the parking space, who then got out and said, "Cars!, ain't they a b----!".

 

[nic4us]

If DOH is the 'only "REAL METHODOLOGY"!' then when was the last time it was used in a pilot seniority list integration and what method has been used in the past decade?

Technically, DOH has not been used in 40 years. The tenant of Allegheny/Mohawk and the RLA section 3 and 13 is to provide for a "fair integration method".

Each and every integration in the past 40 years has been determined by the process, not the methodology.

Negotiation, Mediation, Arbitration. That is how it works, that is what determines the outcome. DOH has been dead since A/M happened 40 years ago.

usapa's C&BLs are contrived BS designed to further their scab cause for our one instance, and are completely irrelevant post McCaskill/Bond.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Enjoy your BS think tank, LUV, NIC , CALLY, bottom line your so far away from your lottery ticket , pipe dream, self justification reality, doesn't really matter, It is a "RISK THING", you protest so much we are not buying, our raises will come threw self deserved attrition, you hired on at AWA, be happy enjoy your self deserved achievement, remember your attatched to the value you bring, but we have a hard time finding it, DUI has already said bye, bye! MM!