AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

Did a giant pumpkin show up today?

Yes and as far as I can tell all he said was he wasn't ripe yet.

 

[nic4us]

Why would the company appeal? They got what they wanted today...if there is a DFR, it's an internal union lawsuit.....they got their out today.

If you think Parker is going to appeal because he supports his home boys out West, you have a lot to learn about this industry. Doug will not give up a huge payday in order to do the right thing, regardless of what the right thing is.

breeze

Nope, not at all.

The company is under a contract called the TA. If they breach it...(BTW, the TA is part of our CBA) they will be held liable with the scab union.

Silver did not release them from liability, nor did she release them from their contractual obligations. She merely affirmed the union has a right to negotiate.

the company did not get what they wanted...they wanted a decision regarding the unions DFR, and they did not get it. So, all they know now is that if they don't use the Nic, and they collude with usapa to avoid the Nic and get DOH, they will be on the losing side of a lawsuit that has basically already been tried.

 

[Phoenix]

I will give a contrarian view from the balcony. Don't think it will happen, but what if? Against the advice of Legal Counsel, the NAC, and the Officers the BPR did not recommend a yes vote on the MOU, sticking a (admittedly well deserved) hot poker in Parker's eye.

Now fast forward to M/Bond seniority hearings..guess who sits at the table with USAPA, APA, and maybe the West pilots? Why the company of course. Parker plops down the Nic and says "have a nice day." Sweet revenge.

Nobody really "won" today. We are all still the lowest paid, most pitiful pilots in the industry. We seem incapable of even climbing the first rung on the ladder out of our dark hole. I sincerely hope the West guys get separate status in M/B (if the merger happens.) But I just don't see it, granting them that status would open the door to the TWA guys, and any other "already represented" pilots to claim status. But I do hope they get it, maybe USAPA can be proactive in that regard.

Greeter

What if APA and USAPA agree to a list, making MB arbitration unnecessary? I can think of a real easy list that would be ratified in an instant, and then lots of people could start their lifelong servitude to another set of lawyers, while the majority of folks just move on.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Yes and as far as I can tell all he said was he wasn't ripe yet.

When you get the WILDER recap you will see the light, or maybe "you" won't!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Nope, not at all.

The company is under a contract called the TA. If they breach it...(BTW, the TA is part of our CBA) they will be held liable with the scab union.

Silver did not release them from liability, nor did she release them from their contractual obligations. She merely affirmed the union has a right to negotiate.

the company did not get what they wanted...they wanted a decision regarding the unions DFR, and they did not get it. So, all they know now is that if they don't use the Nic, and they collude with usapa to avoid the Nic and get DOH, they will be on the losing side of a lawsuit that has basically already been tried.

IF you don't get help at "CHARTER" pleez get help or better yet send your paychecks to , MARTY and sport that "TITANIUM" badge backer!

 

[nic4us]

Hey NIC you are the child in the theater who just won't stop whining.......have you been paying attention at all. You were told. The test now is WIDE RANGE OF REASONABLENESS. DOH is just that. The NIC will play no part in ANY future events. The Addington and NIC are footnotes in a sorry mess that started when an arrogant arbitrator thought it was ok to put 17 years guys junior to a new hire.

I hope you get a life. We on the East will get up and do what we do everyday, try to make do with a shitty deal of incompetant managers, robber barons, and inadequate hubs. If I ever meet an angry bitter West guy who acts like I just stole his lunch money I'll just say..."Is that you NIC4US". And for the record...one last time....I LAY THIS AT NIC'S FEET NOT AT ANY WEST GUY.

NICDOA
NPJB

First you have to get it into a contract......then the test would be did the union represent its class and craft. A wide range of reasonableness is the measure, and scabbing another pilots job falls far outside that range.

go ahead and get up and do what you do everyday. But don't try to make working on the shittiest contract in the industry at the lowest wage so that you can prove to the world you are a reneging scumbag sound so romantic.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Nope, not at all.

The company is under a contract called the TA. If they breach it...(BTW, the TA is part of our CBA) they will be held liable with the scab union.

Silver did not release them from liability, nor did she release them from their contractual obligations. She merely affirmed the union has a right to negotiate.

the company did not get what they wanted...they wanted a decision regarding the unions DFR, and they did not get it. So, all they know now is that if they don't use the Nic, and they collude with usapa to avoid the Nic and get DOH, they will be on the losing side of a lawsuit that has basically already been tried.

From what I have read it seems Silver thought this out pretty well. The conditions of ripeness I believe said ...negotiated agreement and ratified agreement. Considereing this I would think it would be nearly impossible for any DFR claim to gain much ground after the same group that sues for the DFR "negotiated" and "ratified'.

i would think however that some west group(read MEC type group) will have to be implemented during the negotiated part, using USAPA funds to allow the west to negotiate.

Now toss AA into the deal and its a 3 way....which is what I figure Parker will go full steam for now that a court has said it does not have to be NIC. He won't even bother to do anything until it's time to put AA into the mix. Anything prior to that cost him money.

follow the money.

 

[nic4us]

Look...I get it. You're pissed. But eventually, you'll have to come to terms, get a grip and move on.

After today, were ALL moving forward. The DFR you speak CANNOT happen until AFTER a JCBA is attained.

Move forward then...I hear you are parked by the NMB.

who you moving forward with? I can tell you it won't be the company as long as the Nic is not the section 22 proposal.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Look, I'm not trying to dig or in anyway gloat, because in reality we have all lost in the long run that has all of us carrying deep running scars. But my only question, and you can think about this for awhile and are certainly not compelled to answer, but do you ever think that a time for you and maybe for your West co-workers that this financial contribution and support you have for AOL most likely is good money after bad and needs to end? Just maybe an honest answer for an honest question.

No. No vitriol, just an honest answer. This was mishandled from the start. It has to be seen through. Lets just see what transpires. Some say seniority is not for sale, my seniority has nothing to do with this. It's just plain old right and wrong.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

What if APA and USAPA agree to a list, making MB arbitration unnecessary?    I can think of a real easy list that would be ratified in an instant, and then lots of people could start their lifelong servitude to another set of lawyers, while the majority of folks just move on.

I was just "pondering" before. I believe what you pose is a likely (rather possible) outcome. Neither USAPA East nor APA wants to risk a M/B process. Early on in our dealings with APA the idea of 7 years fences was mentioned. That is an interesting timeline, 7 years of attrition on the merged airline sees over 2700 pilots retire at age 65, close to number of active pilots now on the East. So DOH with 7 year fences. Other than the Nic/Shuttle merger that would continue the 40 year + streak of DOH integrations at US Airways.Greeter

 

[mrbreeze]

Nope, not at all.

The company is under a contract called the TA. If they breach it...(BTW, the TA is part of our CBA) they will be held liable with the scab union.

Yes, the company is under a TA contract, but who are the parties involved with the TA? USAirways and USAPA. Today, Silver told everyone that negotiations with USAPA is all that is required. Parker has his out and will not even blink to slow down the American merger, my guess is that he is very incouraged by this ruling and will move forward even faster. Silver's ruling today just takes one more hurdle out of Parker's way of getting what he wants.

It's unfortunate the NIC screwed it up for all of us....we have all lost in this deal, however, the courts have made so many statements against the NIC.....it will be very hard to prove a DFR at this point.
breeze

 

[Phoenix]

From what I have read it seems Silver thought this out pretty well. The conditions of ripeness I believe said ...negotiated agreement and ratified agreement. Considereing this I would think it would be nearly impossible for any DFR claim to gain much ground after the same group that sues for the DFR "negotiated" and "ratified'.

i would think however that some west group(read MEC type group) will have to be implemented during the negotiated part, using USAPA funds to allow the west to negotiate.

Now toss AA into the deal and its a 3 way....which is what I figure Parker will go full steam for now that a court has said it does not have to be NIC. He won't even bother to do anything until it's time to put AA into the mix. Anything prior to that cost him money.

follow the money.

I can't see where there is room for USAPA to establish a super privileged West group for distinct and special negotiating and representation privileges/rights outside of the representation afforded all LCC pilots.

 

[traderjake]

When you get the WILDER recap you will see the light, or maybe "you" won't!

Whatever "you" say.

 

[Phoenix]

I was just "pondering" before. I believe what you pose is a likely (rather possible) outcome. Neither USAPA East nor APA wants to risk a M/B process. Early on in our dealings with APA the idea of 7 years fences was mentioned. That is an interesting timeline, 7 years of attrition on the merged airline sees over 2700 pilots retire at age 65, close to number of active pilots now on the East. So DOH with 7 year fences. Other than the Nic/Shuttle merger that would continue the 40 year + streak of DOH integrations at US Airways.Greeter

That is one list that would have no problem passing. Also could go LOS and stir the pot a little. At any rate, folks are ready to move on and if/when Parker can make money he will throw out some red meat to all the natives to get them to take the bait and be done with it.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I can't see where there is room for USAPA to establish a super privileged West group for distinct and special negotiating and representation privileges/rights outside of the representation afforded all LCC pilots.

yeah it causes an issue, but we have never been intigrated and all parties still operate as the groups they were prior to 2005. Seems like there should be a way.

Considereing the going forward issues, there will be a certian number of holdouts on both side, BUT with NIC off the table that removes most of the resistance. Every pilot on the east that was hired post 1988 that were absolute no votes due to being stapled under everybody on the west will be open to an agreement, as well as the middle 1/3 of the east pilots that were mostly no votes with anything NIC. Assuming the agreement is fair and balanced as they say I think it will remove most of the resistance from the west captains and the east captains. So even if every single west F/O votes no on such an agreement that is a total of 700 or so pilots. i think that would make it near impossible for any DFR to succeed.

This way every pilot at the airline will be included this time, unlike the NIC disaster that left 1/3 of the east completly out which then scewed the rest of the list into a longevity nightmare. considering that we are dead last on wages east and west and falling farther behind by the day I think something reasonable that includes every pilot on the east and west will have 75% or better support from the total pilot group east and west.