AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

We're not worried about a DFR case. Should the company move off of the Nic they will be in breach of contract and that is much easier to litigate than a DFR. Parker knows this and that is why he requested the DJ. Now that the court has made it clear that he cannot hide behind them it is up to Parker to do the right thing, contractually. He already knows what he has to do, his attorneys certainly do, and we will see if he finally grows a spine.

If Parker can't lead this company out of this relatively minor debacle then he certainly is not capable of leading the largest airline in the world.

I'm sorry Ames, but your crystal ball has proven less than accurate. A blast from the past:

"Ames Today, 11:43 AM


cleardirect, on 31 December 2011 - 11:34 AM, said:
I think what the west is saying the seniority fight will be over by April. Once Silver rules that should be the end. The company will point to the court and say the court said. an appeal is not going to matter. Once the company makes up their mind and it will time to move towards a contract or merger. If there is a merger the company is going to say the seniority dispute is over so investors don't worry.

An appeal does not matter. Even if the court says not ripe or you can do something other than the Nicolau They can still stand on the Nicolau. they need to move forward and are not going to wait much longer. So yes the seniority issue will be over by April. The usapa leadership issue should be over by April too."



"Well said. I, too, will go on record to say that the seniority fight will be over upon Judge Silver's ruling. There is no doubt the east will continue to stamp their feet, hold their breath, and cry but the fight will be over. Tantrums will continue but they will be totally impotent"

You might be right, but I don't know. Breach of contract? Does that work with the RLA?

 

[Pi brat]

Abner Mikva, George Pataki and George Mitchell agreed to participate in this impasse between USAPA and Leonidas. This was clearly known as fact by Eric Ferguson, He REJECTED their involvement.

I've never heard this. Was it made public and I missed it?

 

[Phoenix]

It means you were outmaneuvered, masterfully I might add........

Everyone on every side has put in a great effort to deny USAPA's RLA authorities. Congratulations to everyone for exercising their right to argue their positions to the bitter end. Reality is settling in and a bipartisan majority is way past ready to move on and leave the ever-shrinking outliers to continue their complaints on message boards. Time to move on and the answer is obvious. Most folks will be generally satisfied and forget all about the past, a minority will cling to bitterness and live a miserable life, even after they retire.

 

[eastcoast]

I'm just not seeing it. What I take away is that Silver affirmed that we (USAPA) can negotiate any seniority list we want. Wasn't that always the case? I didn't think that was in dispute. Correct me if I am wrong.

What Silver did NOT do is take away the legal repercussions of negotiating away from the Nic. Not from USAPA and not from the Company. So the the one thing that has kept us all in Purgatory all this time... the legal threat of a hybrid DFR... still exists.

Looks like the same stalemate continues. Even IF USAPA negotiates another seniority list, AND the company accepts it, AND a new contract puts it all into effect, Leonidas gets an immediate injunction, and sues LCC (or AMR) and USAPA (or APA) into extinction.

So, someone please explain what has been won here. (And spare me the standard talking points, spin, and out of context quotes. I'm already quite well versed in those. Aren't we all? I'm looking for real answers and realistic scenarios that can unfold in a way that doesn't end in the above mentioned injunction.)

 

[Hate2fly]

I've never heard this. Was it made public and I missed it?

Pibrat,

All the anti Cleary crowd created so much bs during his term it wouldn't have mattered. Mike did a great job. The real problem now is you have a president that doesn't have a clue on how to run a union. This group deserves everything we get.
Hate

 

[Phoenix]

I'm just not seeing it. What I take away is that Silver affirmed that we (USAPA) can negotiate any seniority list we want. Wasn't that always the case? I didn't think that was in dispute. Correct me if I am wrong.

What Silver did NOT do is take away the legal repercussions of negotiating away from the Nic. Not from USAPA and not from the Company. So the the one thing that has kept us all in Purgatory all this time... the legal threat of a hybrid DFR... still exists.

Looks like the same stalemate continues. Even IF USAPA negotiates another seniority list, AND the company accepts it, AND a new contract puts it all into effect, Leonidas gets an immediate injunction, and sues LCC (or AMR) and USAPA (or APA) into extinction.

So, someone please explain what has been won here. (And spare me the standard talking points, spin, and out of context quotes. I'm already quite well versed in those. Aren't we all? I'm looking for real answers and realistic scenarios that can unfold in a way that doesn't end in the above mentioned injunction.)

The right of USAPA to negotiate as they see fit has always been in dispute. The West opposed it and the company feigned ignorance. The answer forward is obvious. The number of folks that are holding out with confusion is getting rapidly smaller.

No one promised anyone an injunction. A DFR suit is allowed after ratification and the road of "wide range of reasonableness" is plenty broad to get past any guilt, much less any injunction. Ratification is the only way forward and everyone is more than ready to ratify something. When the company wants to move ahead they will and a majority of pilots will ratify.

 

[nic4us]

There are no laws in arbitration of this sort. This is a seniority proposal within a labor organization. Only Federal arbitrations are governed with laws.

Uh boy,,,why do I even bother....???

Here is the deal Swan.....you work in a closed shop represented by an organization granted the rights to collectively bargain for its class and craft.....Yes????

The class has a contract as per the RLA (ever heard of that it is a federal law). That contract calls for the method of integration of the two groups.

So, what we have is a contract that is guaranteed under federal law, that specifically says the exact same thing that the McCaskil/Bond legislation says.


Listen, it is the Nic or nothing,,,you chose nothing....quit trying to weasel out of the deal..it ain't going to happen.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Judge to US Airways: Pilot Pact Can Eschew Disputed Seniority List

Silver's ruling would not, however, disenfranchise supporters of the list proposed by arbitrator George Nicolau. So the likelihood of further legal action -- by America West pilots, the airline, or both -- remains.

US Airways' attorney said the judge's proposed ruling does not sufficiently protect the carrier.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11726739/1/judge-to-us-airways-pilot-pact-can-eschew-disputed-seniority-list.html

 

[Black Swan]

I'm just not seeing it. What I take away is that Silver affirmed that we (USAPA) can negotiate any seniority list we want. Wasn't that always the case? I didn't think that was in dispute. Correct me if I am wrong.

What Silver did NOT do is take away the legal repercussions of negotiating away from the Nic. Not from USAPA and not from the Company. So the the one thing that has kept us all in Purgatory all this time... the legal threat of a hybrid DFR... still exists.

Looks like the same stalemate continues. Even IF USAPA negotiates another seniority list, AND the company accepts it, AND a new contract puts it all into effect, Leonidas gets an immediate injunction, and sues LCC (or AMR) and USAPA (or APA) into extinction.

So, someone please explain what has been won here. (And spare me the standard talking points, spin, and out of context quotes. I'm already quite well versed in those. Aren't we all? I'm looking for real answers and realistic scenarios that can unfold in a way that doesn't end in the above mentioned injunction.)

Wiki USAirline Pilots Assn. and read the 9th. Under Addington dispute. USAPA was from day one unshackled from ALPA and its' Nicolau bargaining PROPOSAL. The 9th gave a very clear discussion. Seniority, like crew meals, is negotiable. Silver affirmed it yesterday. The West spin on this was so loud and continual it caused a lot of smoke that people could not see through. The Nic has been declared non incumbent on USAPA. USAPA is free to bargain as the representative of LCC Pilots, with LCC. Without the nic. if that is the chosen methodology. The 9th discussion is full of clear references the Nic.does not have to be the final product.



"Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision." 9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco
[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

 

[Black Swan]

This all was totally clear from the 9th. It was just the continual misinterpretation by the likes of Move2Clt, Nic4 us and Ames that was pure smoke, over and over. Read the very last line of the above. That sums it all up.

 

[nic4us]

I'm just not seeing it. What I take away is that Silver affirmed that we (USAPA) can negotiate any seniority list we want. Wasn't that always the case? I didn't think that was in dispute. Correct me if I am wrong.

What Silver did NOT do is take away the legal repercussions of negotiating away from the Nic. Not from USAPA and not from the Company. So the the one thing that has kept us all in Purgatory all this time... the legal threat of a hybrid DFR... still exists.

Looks like the same stalemate continues. Even IF USAPA negotiates another seniority list, AND the company accepts it, AND a new contract puts it all into effect, Leonidas gets an immediate injunction, and sues LCC (or AMR) and USAPA (or APA) into extinction.

So, someone please explain what has been won here. (And spare me the standard talking points, spin, and out of context quotes. I'm already quite well versed in those. Aren't we all? I'm looking for real answers and realistic scenarios that can unfold in a way that doesn't end in the above mentioned injunction.)

you are right on target..nothing has changed and the only scenario that can unfold sans the injunction possibility is usapa uses the Nic.


further, it is yet to be seen how the company replies to any usapa proposal. In their update, usapa said they are going to immediately petition the NMB to resume talks..

here is how that is going to go....

usapa: here is our new seniority proposal.

company: we do not negotiate seniority, we simply accept what you come up with, how did you arrive at this.

usapa: we made it up cause we don't like the NIc.

company: sorry, that list does not meet the criteria of the TA, so we are going to have to reject it.

NMB Mediator: um.....back to the parking lot. (clue....Nic not only would be, but has already been accepted by company)

 

[Black Swan]

Uh boy,,,why do I even bother....???

Here is the deal Swan.....you work in a closed shop represented by an organization granted the rights to collectively bargain for its class and craft.....Yes????

The class has a contract as per the RLA (ever heard of that it is a federal law). That contract calls for the method of integration of the two groups.

So, what we have is a contract that is guaranteed under federal law, that specifically says the exact same thing that the McCaskil/Bond legislation says.


Listen, it is the Nic or nothing,,,you chose nothing....quit trying to weasel out of the deal..it ain't going to happen.

"The proposed ruling, suggested Tuesday by Judge Roslyn Silver, apparently will say the airline and its pilots union can negotiate a contract that does not include an arbitrators' controversial 2007 seniority list. A dispute over the list has deeply separated pilots ever since the 2005 merger between

[background=transparent]US[/background]​

[background=transparent]Airways[/background]​

and America West.: The street .com
Nic4, can you read? Honestly

 

[nic4us]

Pibrat,

All the anti Cleary crowd created so much bs during his term it wouldn't have mattered. Mike did a great job. The real problem now is you have a president that doesn't have a clue on how to run a union. This group deserves everything we get.
Hate

Really???

did scab Cleary do a great job handling the possible UA merger when called to Tempe?

Cleary is the second biggest POS on the east.

 

[Black Swan]

Nic4us is exactly like the Japanese Cave fighters they stumbled on in the 1960 s who were still fighting WW2......

 

[nic4us]

The right of USAPA to negotiate as they see fit has always been in dispute. The West opposed it and the company feigned ignorance. The answer forward is obvious. The number of folks that are holding out with confusion is getting rapidly smaller.

No one promised anyone an injunction. A DFR suit is allowed after ratification and the road of "wide range of reasonableness" is plenty broad to get past any guilt, much less any injunction. Ratification is the only way forward and everyone is more than ready to ratify something. When the company wants to move ahead they will and a majority of pilots will ratify.

Another false statement.

Lets just say hypothetically, the West files another DFR tomorrow? You are saying it would not be allowed?


I am saying it would go to court and tie things up....just saying.