AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

Uh boy,,,why do I even bother....???

Here is the deal Swan.....you work in a closed shop represented by an organization granted the rights to collectively bargain for its class and craft.....Yes????

The class has a contract as per the RLA (ever heard of that it is a federal law). That contract calls for the method of integration of the two groups.

So, what we have is a contract that is guaranteed under federal law, that specifically says the exact same thing that the McCaskil/Bond legislation says.


Listen, it is the Nic or nothing,,,you chose nothing....quit trying to weasel out of the deal..it ain't going to happen.

Try? Try done. Deal. Broken.

 

[Black Swan]

Really???

did scab Cleary do a great job handling the possible UA merger when called to Tempe?

Cleary is the second biggest POS on the east.

Mike Cleary set this entire legal move up. Brian O Dwyer wrote the battle plan. The war is now over.
See you. And have a great day!

 

[nic4us]

Wiki USAirline Pilots Assn. and read the 9th. Under Addington dispute. USAPA was from day one unshackled from ALPA and its' Nicolau bargaining PROPOSAL. The 9th gave a very clear discussion. Seniority, like crew meals, is negotiable. Silver affirmed it yesterday. The West spin on this was so loud and continual it caused a lot of smoke that people could not see through. The Nic has been declared non incumbent on USAPA. USAPA is free to bargain as the representative of LCC Pilots, with LCC. Without the nic. if that is the chosen methodology. The 9th discussion is full of clear references the Nic.does not have to be the final product.



"Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision." 9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco
[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

The Nic has not been "declared non incumbent on usapa"

No court to date has touched the "thorny question".

Get over it already Swan...binding means binding...it ain't going away unless the West says so...and so far, and very contrary to the hype PHX and Nevergive are throwing out about all there West "freinds" that are ready to move on....

The West is still entirely commited to NIc....sorry...it is LOA93 and separate ops. that is the best you are going to do.

 

[Black Swan]

We're not worried about a DFR case. Should the company move off of the Nic they will be in breach of contract and that is much easier to litigate than a DFR. Parker knows this and that is why he requested the DJ. Now that the court has made it clear that he cannot hide behind them it is up to Parker to do the right thing, contractually. He already knows what he has to do, his attorneys certainly do, and we will see if he finally grows a spine.

If Parker can't lead this company out of this relatively minor debacle then he certainly is not capable of leading the largest airline in the world.

Show us the CONTRACT where it is Ames. You can't. The one that says NICOLAU clearly in print.

 

[Black Swan]

The Nic has not been "declared non incumbent on usapa"

No court to date has touched the "thorny question".

Get over it already Swan...binding means binding...it ain't going away unless the West says so...and so far, and very contrary to the hype PHX and Nevergive are throwing out about all there West "freinds" that are ready to move on....

The West is still entirely commited to NIc....sorry...it is LOA93 and separate ops. that is the best you are going to do.

Have you asked Marty if he can morally continue to take your money? I bet he finally has to hand you off to some other ambulance chaser and get a referral fee. Even Marty is going to feel like he has to unhitch from this loser.

 

[Phoenix]

Lets just say hypothetically, the West files another DFR tomorrow? You are saying it would not be allowed?


I am saying it would go to court and tie things up....just saying.

West or East whining about USAPA's bargaining position.... Dismissed faster than a homeless guy walking into the front door of the Waldorf Astoria.

 

[usabusdriver]

I'm just not seeing it. What I take away is that Silver affirmed that we (USAPA) can negotiate any seniority list we want. Wasn't that always the case? I didn't think that was in dispute. Correct me if I am wrong.

What Silver did NOT do is take away the legal repercussions of negotiating away from the Nic. Not from USAPA and not from the Company. So the the one thing that has kept us all in Purgatory all this time... the legal threat of a hybrid DFR... still exists.

Looks like the same stalemate continues. Even IF USAPA negotiates another seniority list, AND the company accepts it, AND a new contract puts it all into effect, Leonidas gets an immediate injunction, and sues LCC (or AMR) and USAPA (or APA) into extinction.

So, someone please explain what has been won here. (And spare me the standard talking points, spin, and out of context quotes. I'm already quite well versed in those. Aren't we all? I'm looking for real answers and realistic scenarios that can unfold in a way that doesn't end in the above mentioned injunction.)

At least someone gets it.

 

[nic4us]

Mike Cleary set this entire legal move up. Brian O Dwyer wrote the battle plan. The war is now over.
See you. And have a great day!

Whatever you say...um....Mike???

Mike is so brilliant he got usapa parked and under an injunction.


So Swan, it is obvious I am not going to change your mind, and you will never accept the reality of the situation.

But, I will leave you with this, the company wanted cover from the West lawsuit, they did not get it. So, ask yourself which the company fears more, the parked union, or the West pilot class lawsuit that has already been proven?

 

[Black Swan]

Whatever you say...um....Mike???

Mike is so brilliant he got usapa parked and under an injunction.


So Swan, it is obvious I am not going to change your mind, and you will never accept the reality of the situation.

But, I will leave you with this, the company wanted cover from the West lawsuit, they did not get it. So, ask yourself which the company fears more, the parked union, or the West pilot class lawsuit that has already been proven?

You will have to ask them that. I personally think all they are thinking of now is how to stuff some more $$$ in their pockets, and we are honestly small fry.
I will change my mind if you can show me where Silver supports your case. I just don't see it.
My wish is for some way of working out a fair deal where we can move beyond this. If anyone enjoyed one minute of this continuous battle, they are sick. I would much prefer to work with you guys as you are for the most part very much as we are. We all want the same things. Personally, I regret some of the exchanges here, and apologize for the times I went overboard.

 

[nic4us]

West or East whining about USAPA's bargaining position.... Dismissed faster than a homeless guy walking into the front door of the Waldorf Astoria.

who said anything about usapa bargaining position?

 

[nic4us]

Show us the CONTRACT where it is Ames. You can't. The one that says NICOLAU clearly in print.

The contract does not say Nicolau clearly in print because when the contract was written there was no Nicolau. The contract says ALPA merger policy clearly in print, and the contract was followed to completion of the SLI terms, including acceptance by the company.

Have you asked Marty if he can morally continue to take your money? I bet he finally has to hand you off to some other ambulance chaser and get a referral fee. Even Marty is going to feel like he has to unhitch from this loser.

Tell you what, if Marty dumps the West then maybe its over. I would guess that Marty will hang around in case of that very slim chance that the company will open their assets to a huge damages trial by accepting a usapa proposal other than the Nic without the West's first finding the proposal not containing the "harm plaintiffs fear".

You will have to ask them that. I personally think all they are thinking of now is how to stuff some more $$$ in their pockets, and we are honestly small fry.

I think the company will answere it relatively soon. Parker, Kirby or Johnson will put something out and say where we are heading, then we will know.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I think the NIC is dead. Most are ready to find another path that both sides will pass.

I also firmly believe if AOL attempts to hold up or stop the AA merger if it starts full steam they will be sold off. Follow the money. Doug is.

With the momentum of an AA merge and 2 court rulings it looks like to me all AOL can accomplish is the west being sold to somebody else.

Time will tell.

 

[EastUS1]

"The proposed ruling, suggested Tuesday by Judge Roslyn Silver, apparently will say the airline and its pilots union can negotiate a contract that does not include an arbitrators' controversial 2007 seniority list. A dispute over the list has deeply separated pilots ever since the 2005 merger between

[background=transparent]US[/background]​

[background=transparent]Airways[/background]​

Nic4, can you read? Honestly

Indeed, and speaking of honestly; can anyone honestly wonder exactly how and why this whole mess got started in the first place?:

"The list's most controversial component placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, who was never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with just a few years."

Yes, yes...we all know: "Fair and Equitable!"...."Integrity Matters!"..."We saved you!"/etc, etc....well...toxic BS forever remains toxic BS..... no matter how many layers of additional BS it's ever coated with....Period!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Whatever you say...um....Mike???

Mike is so brilliant he got usapa parked and under an injunction.


So Swan, it is obvious I am not going to change your mind, and you will never accept the reality of the situation.

But, I will leave you with this, the company wanted cover from the West lawsuit, they did not get it. So, ask yourself which the company fears more, the parked union, or the West pilot class lawsuit that has already been proven?

What they fear the most is no one willing to buy the "WEST" in a hook-up with AMERICAN! Since its only purpose is losing money and useless litigation! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I think the NIC is dead. Most are ready to find another path that both sides will pass.

I also firmly believe if AOL attempts to hold up or stop the AA merger if it starts full steam they will be sold off. Follow the money. Doug is.

With the momentum of an AA merge and 2 court rulings it looks like to me all AOL can accomplish is the west being sold to somebody else.

Time will tell.

Said that from day 1 ! MM! Bravo KERO