AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

"...then make them contractually bound."

Yep. Anyone that chooses to do otherwise and acts instead on misplaced faith....requires their ignoring history entirely.....

George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

I agree 100%.
We ignored our advisors and ended up with LOA93 AND the NIC. The BPR is doing it again and we will repeat the past because of it.

Driver...

 

[Phoenix]

If APA becomes our CBA I'm sure they'll be very concerned for our sacrifices and resolve.

Yes, of course, they will ensure all former LCC pilots (east and west) are given wages far worse than LOA 93, and they will secure for themselves rates 10% higher than Delta.. and they won't be found guilty of a DFR for at least 20 years due to the glacial court system.

But the west And their cheerleaders will finally be content.

 

[john john]

I believe as the RJ contracts expire, they will bring much of that flying, with 190s or otherwise, back in house where it belongs. And no, I don't think they want to shrink capacity. Parker has said repeatedly that the industry has pretty much rightsized and there is no need for further reductions. We've seen first hand how shrinking yourself into profitability works. Short answer...it didn't. It very nearly did us in.

Honest answer.

With the weak RJ market management will low ball contract carriers and proclaim it is cheaper then bringing flying in house. At lest that will be there story heard it all before

 

[767one]

Then what do you suppose they will be doing with the 400+ A320/B737s they have on order? BTW, how many 190s do they have on order...uh...NONE.

Driver...

Driver,

If you look at the past history of this and most other airlines you will see more aircraft order CANCELLATIONS than god can count. How about when good ole USAirways cancelled Boeing orders in order to get the Airbi? This company paid an initially undisclosed sum to Boeing in order to cancel those orders when all Boeing wanted us to do was take a number of Boeing aircraft equal to the value of the cancellation fee. When the fee was finally disclosed it was 250 million. How many 75's or 76's could we have received for 250 million? This happened at a time when the company was turning down international flying because we didn't have enough aircraft..

This company after a merger would make do (sound familiar) with the current fleet until the new 190/195 orders could be filled.

If the company does not want to give us a min. fleet there is a reason and it is sure not going to be good for the pilots.


Bob

 

[767one]

I believe as the RJ contracts expire, they will bring much of that flying, with 190s or otherwise, back in house where it belongs. And no, I don't think they want to shrink capacity. Parker has said repeatedly that the industry has pretty much rightsized and there is no need for further reductions. We've seen first hand how shrinking yourself into profitability works. Short answer...it didn't. It very nearly did us in.

Honest answer.

Driver,

Common sense would dictate that they bring the flying back in house as the RJ conctacts expire but there is very little common sense in this business....Mr. Spock would not have survived because there is no logic. Maybe they don't want to shrink the airline but I'm pretty sure they would like to sub out more of the flying. I also would not doubt that the 190/195 could be modified to fly the mission of the 319 and thereby replace all of the 737 and 319 flying at a the low wages for the 190/195.

 

[767one]

You don't have to trust the company. The MOU says if they shrink our side, they have to shrink the AA side at least twice as much. Don't you get it or aren't you listening? This whole merger lives or dies on market share. Shrink the company and they lose everything this merger is about. We have the worst contract in the industry and you thumb your nose at the improvements the MOU provides. Vote any way you like but how about stop with the misinformation.

Driver...

Driver,

The company gets to shrink both sides so it is a great deal for them......they get to remove twice as many of those nasty costly employees, particularly those costly pain in the rear pilots! Just because shrinking the company doesn't make sense doesn't mean they wont try it.


Bob

 

[cactusboy53]

I have been quiet for a week or so, trying to soak up the feel of the membership and this board. It is now crystal clear to me what must happen.

Not sure of Robert’s Rules, since this is a continuation of a meeting, but the BPR needs to act now. First order of business is to immediately replace General Council, Merger Council, and especially
our Professional Negotiator. Even though these guys work for us (and not all of ALPA as before) is obvious they have been conspiring with Hummel since his election. Roland beat out the Teamsters (thanks to the CLT reps) and the other two were appointed by Cleary. They are all corrupt now, having gone off the reservation unanimously recommending that the MOU be put out AS IS and YESTERDAY. How dare them do that, they are all being paid off by Parker. What a bunch of losers! Don’t trust them!

As to the NAC, consisting of Dean (a holdover from as far back as ALPA), Owens (beaming down in his red shirt) and the two West guys (selling us out for the NIC no matter how much a deal might help their families) they also ALL need to be fired, immediately. They cannot be trusted. Perhaps a recall of all the Officers is in order also. I am sure at least 3 of them are in full support of the MOU, having not touched base with number 4 (he is too busy stealing PIC moneys and diverting them to his account in the Caymans to reply to me.)

I hope the BPR acts with wicked precision, and takes out at least all of Legal and our entire NAC this week, as they all (each and every one) are all not to be trusted. USAPA was founded on the ideal that Professionals could do better than line pilots at the table with decision making. Of course there was never any mentioning of actually listening to them.

Greeter

Dude;
That post has to rival nearly anything the psycho's have put out.

You want to FIRE all the attorneys? You are running out of legal counsel that is willing to blow sunshine up your backside @ $400 an hour. Hey smart guy: What exactly makes these people "corrupt"? They are earning a wage (lawyers) or on FPL (all commuters that are away from family & home MUCH MORE than if they were flying a line..). Once again you prove the point of NOT having pilots be lead negotiators: YOU ARE RULED BY EMOTIONS.

Fire the West NAC because they are "selling us out for the NIC no matter how much a deal might help their families."?? The NIC has NOTHING to do with the MOU. The TERM SHEET has NOTHING to do with the NIC. These documents are the FRAMEWORK to a likely JCBA that is now being negotiated by APA & LCC. The Nic will be legally completed. End of story.

Do you really want to take what they (APA & LCC) have sliced out for you?

Roland Wilder said two things in his interview that you should take the time to remember:

1. There comes a point in negotiations where the company will simply steam roll over you because it is easier than the continued painfully long, pointless negotiations with the union.
   
2. I will always tell you the truth and not blow sunshine up your a$$ (paraphrased).

The BPR is meeting on Tuesday & Wednesday of this week. If you WANT to vote on the MOU, you had better call, e-mail or reach out in person to your respective BPR representatives.

CB

 

[A320 Driver]

Driver,

The company gets to shrink both sides so it is a great deal for them......they get to remove twice as many of those nasty costly employees, particularly those costly pain in the rear pilots! Just because shrinking the company doesn't make sense doesn't mean they wont try it.


Bob

Read the whole post Bob. This isn't the idiots at US Air that bought two airlines and shrunk them down to nothing. To get the revenue stream, they can't give up marketshare. Not trying to be ugly but I doubt if min fleet will ever have any effect on you anyway. You have yours.

Driver...

 

[Piedmont1984]

Driver

Like I posted earlier, there is no need to give up market share. The 190/195 series can perform the mission of the MD80 and single aisle Boeing and Airbus quite well while pilots are gradually transitioned to Category C payrates. The company simply needs to comply with provisions regarding baselines and year over year percentages - no minimum floor.

I'm 60 and I could very well end up on the Embraer. That's fine, I don't presume to make fleet decisions, just pay me for what the 190 actually is - a high tech, fuel efficient DC-9 with a funny yoke.

 

[Ames]

And...what was that fabulous pay rate for them going to be again....?

About what an east narrowbody pilot makes now.

 

[luvn737s]

Maybe they don't want to shrink the airline but I'm pretty sure they would like to sub out more of the flying. I also would not doubt that the 190/195 could be modified to fly the mission of the 319 and thereby replace all of the 737 and 319 flying at a the low wages for the 190/195.

Show me an example of DAL or UCAL dumping their fleets of mainline equipment and replacing them wholesale with EMBs. There would be EMB plants sprouting up in the US just to ensure they could be delivered quicker.

No, the red herrings you are throwing out are really beginning to stink. You know the fear mongering about being displaced to the RJ (with pay protection - yeah that makes sense, pay a pilot to be less productive) is nothing more than a transparent attempt to secure the status quo a little longer.

List what Seigel and Bronner and Lakefield did to you airline versus what Parker has done or tried to do and then come back with the the proof that Parker wants to implode US just to ruin your day.

You can try to withhold your Fleet Mins, but they are APA's now to do with what they want. And when push comes to shove, for all the false bravado of the east, you'd trade fleet mins for a lower health insurance co-pay.

The Charlotte Paper Panthers - with Wings!

 

[fatherabraham]

I hope the BPR acts with wicked precision, and takes out at least all of Legal and our entire NAC this week, as they all (each and every one) are all not to be trusted.

Greeter

Greeter,
Not sure if your post was intended sarcasm , as I usually don't agree with you.
Don't know if any/all of your direct NAC individuals descriptions are true but I agree ALL need replaced.
Seriously , at this point I would be more comfortable with ALL USAPA leaders being drawn from a hat every 6 months and being put on fpl. I don't fly with folks that make these poor decisions on the line, but continuously asked to consider nonsensical BS once in office.
As far as the paid negotiators, agree totally (fire em all).
Gary Hummel should be ashamed!

FA

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Greeter,
Not sure if your post was intended sarcasm , as I usually don't agree with you.
Don't know if any/all of your direct NAC individuals descriptions are true but I agree ALL need replaced.
Seriously , at this point I would be more comfortable with ALL USAPA leaders being drawn from a hat every 6 months and being put on fpl. I don't fly with folks that make these poor decisions on the line, but continuously asked to consider nonsensical BS once in office.
As far as the paid negotiators, agree totally (fire em all).
Gary Hummel should be ashamed!

FA

The BPR has told the entire world USAPA Legal and ENTIRE NAC have failed, and are not to be trusted. How can they send them back in now, after a public denouncement of their work and opinons?Time to clean house, all new Legal and NAC.Greeter

 

[A320 Driver]

The BPR has told the entire world USAPA Legal and ENTIRE NAC have failed, and are not to be trusted. How can they send them back in now, after a public denouncement of their work and opinons?Time to clean house, all new Legal and NAC.Greeter

If you're going to do that, make sure you don't go back to the old guard(Diorio). Do-nothings are still experts at doing nothing. We go with Diorio, we go back to square one standing outside with our nose against the window hoping to get back in.

Hey, while you're at it, recall the whole BPR and get those AHs off of FPL.

Driver...

 

[767one]

Show me an example of DAL or UCAL dumping their fleets of mainline equipment and replacing them wholesale with EMBs. There would be EMB plants sprouting up in the US just to ensure they could be delivered quicker.

No, the red herrings you are throwing out are really beginning to stink. You know the fear mongering about being displaced to the RJ (with pay protection - yeah that makes sense, pay a pilot to be less productive) is nothing more than a transparent attempt to secure the status quo a little longer.

List what Seigel and Bronner and Lakefield did to you airline versus what Parker has done or tried to do and then come back with the the proof that Parker wants to implode US just to ruin your day.

You can try to withhold your Fleet Mins, but they are APA's now to do with what they want. And when push comes to shove, for all the false bravado of the east, you'd trade fleet mins for a lower health insurance co-pay.

The Charlotte Paper Panthers - with Wings!

This airline is not Ucal or Dal..don't think it ever will be in that class because then Mr. P. would not have an excuse to keep us on the bottom tier of wages. He is not doing this JUST to ruin my/our day he is doing it to put money in his pocket.


Bob