August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[nevergiveup]

The TA as I believes calls for a negotiated contract, something our union has not done. POR means no changes in the lists currently in effect. Just repeating what we already know. Drink plenty of fluids!

 

[cleardirect]

I will state right up front that I may be wrong, but I think you are putting too much emphasis on a contract. Go back and read the whole 9th ruling again. It seems to me that they talk about a ratified contract completing things because in our PREVIOUS case, that is where the SLI completion resided. It was actually the SLI that needed to be finished and in the TA the ratified contract was the last step. That is not the case with the MOU and the AA/US SLI. I think that for you to prevail there you will have to have the MOU ruled illegal because it spells out a different path.

I wouldn't count on a joint bid anytime soon unless Judge Silver throws out the MOU. The MOU does finish up the TA, but it doesn't in a way that keeps us separate and operating under our respective lists.

So in order to make your fantasy work you have to ignore the language of the ninth that says a ratified contract is what is needed. You have to somehow read an implemented seniority list before the west is harmed.

Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal —

What you always want to ignore is the list was completed. The only thing we are waiting for is implementation. Just like the JCBA we are just waiting on implementation. Perhaps you think we will get a different pay rate or maybe the company can negotiate no retro check or is that part completed?


Hey you finally struck on the problem usapa has with the MOU. Go back and read the Addington III complaint. Having usapa and company negotiate a seniority neutral contract in place of the Nicolau is the DFR because usapa had no LUP. (See judge Silver's last order from the company DJ)

Now that we have a joint contract and there is no pay or work rule differences what possible reason does Parker have to continue separate ops? What does it gain him? Does he save any money running separate ops? Does Parker care who flies what equipment or where? Separate ops will come to a quick end. Parker is not going to wait 1-2 years to put the east west together.

What is the only seniority combined list Parker has?

 

[nevergiveup]

So in order to make your fantasy work you have to ignore the language of the ninth that says a ratified contract is what is needed. You have to somehow read an implemented seniority list before the west is harmed.




What you always want to ignore is the list was completed. The only thing we are waiting for is implementation. Just like the JCBA we are just waiting on implementation. Perhaps you think we will get a different pay rate or maybe the company can negotiate no retro check or is that part completed?


Hey you finally struck on the problem usapa has with the MOU. Go back and read the Addington III complaint. Having usapa and company negotiate a seniority neutral contract in place of the Nicolau is the DFR because usapa had no LUP. (See judge Silver's last order from the company DJ)

Now that we have a joint contract and there is no pay or work rule differences what possible reason does Parker have to continue separate ops? What does it gain him? Does he save any money running separate ops? Does Parker care who flies what equipment or where? Separate ops will come to a quick end. Parker is not going to wait 1-2 years to put the east west together.

What is the only seniority combined list Parker has?

So why do we still have separate ops? I believe we will see 3 way ops for about two more years. Possible longer if the west chooses.

 

[cleardirect]

So why do we still have separate ops? I believe we will see 3 way ops for about two more years. Possible longer if the west chooses.

Why? Give me a none emotional, financial business reason why Parker would continue to run a more expensive separate operation?

Other than because you what it that way.

You did see the your protector Bular is gone with the merger. Do you think the next senior VP of flt ops is going to give a crap about keeping you easties happy and handing you all the benefits? He will not care about your seniority issue. He wants to run ONE, single operation not three.

After the POR AMR, east and west will be on the same contract with no cost advantage for any group. Do you think Parker likes having to run separate ops? The only question you need to ask yourself is does it save Parker money to do it that way?

Does Parker enjoy spending money on expensive lawyers?

Does Parker like being constrained where he can move flying?

Separate ops was a cost of doing business because it saved him $150-200 million a year because you easties handed it to him for your emotional rant. Parker was more than willing to keep it in his pocket. Those savings go away.

 

[Pi brat]

So in order to make your fantasy work you have to ignore the language of the ninth that says a ratified contract is what is needed. You have to somehow read an implemented seniority list before the west is harmed.




What you always want to ignore is the list was completed. The only thing we are waiting for is implementation. Just like the JCBA we are just waiting on implementation. Perhaps you think we will get a different pay rate or maybe the company can negotiate no retro check or is that part completed?


Hey you finally struck on the problem usapa has with the MOU. Go back and read the Addington III complaint. Having usapa and company negotiate a seniority neutral contract in place of the Nicolau is the DFR because usapa had no LUP. (See judge Silver's last order from the company DJ)

Now that we have a joint contract and there is no pay or work rule differences what possible reason does Parker have to continue separate ops? What does it gain him? Does he save any money running separate ops? Does Parker care who flies what equipment or where? Separate ops will come to a quick end. Parker is not going to wait 1-2 years to put the east west together.

What is the only seniority combined list Parker has?

t
Do as I suggested and go READ the 9th opinion again. Through the MOU we ALL agreed to amend the TA and lay out a path to a new contract and SLI. We did not agree to accept the Nic award, as a matter of fact the NAC told us all not to vote for or against on that basis. If the Nic had been included it is likely that we would still be in the same old stalemate. YOU are reading more into it than is there.

"Indeed, the Supreme Court case that clarified that the DFR
was applicable during contract negotiations articulated its
holding in terms that imply a claim can be brought only after
negotiations are complete and a “final product” has been
reached."

What is the final product? If it is the Nic then why does the MOU have spell out that we will use listS now in effect? Why separate block hour requirements for east and west? Under the MOU the Nic never gets implement, hence your legal teams efforts to have it ruled illegal.

Judge Silver mentioned a LUP. Besides, if there wasn't one, why did you vote for it?

The contract Parker signed calls for separate ops to continue until the final US/AA merger!

 

[PullUp]

After the POR, DP has the ability for east and west crews to fly each other's equipment. Also, the F/A's will be able to mingle and they won't be tied to the front end crew. The only thing the company cannot do is mix east and west crewmembers on trips.
They probably don't think that's a good idea anyway.
So, the 'separate operation' rant is actually not all that significant. It was never about personnel anyway, it was about moving east and west airframes around more efficiently. After POR, it doesn't matter who flies what.
Cheers.

 

[nevergiveup]

Why? Give me a none emotional, financial business reason why Parker would continue to run a more expensive separate operation?

Other than because you what it that way.

You did see the your protector Bular is gone with the merger. Do you think the next senior VP of flt ops is going to give a crap about keeping you easties happy and handing you all the benefits? He will not care about your seniority issue. He wants to run ONE, single operation not three.

After the POR AMR, east and west will be on the same contract with no cost advantage for any group. Do you think Parker likes having to run separate ops? The only question you need to ask yourself is does it save Parker money to do it that way?

Does Parker enjoy spending money on expensive lawyers?

Does Parker like being constrained where he can move flying?

Separate ops was a cost of doing business because it saved him $150-200 million a year because you easties handed it to him for your emotional rant. Parker was more than willing to keep it in his pocket. Those savings go away.

So why didn't he start it last month?

 

[cleardirect]

So why didn't he start it last month?

Has the POR happened?

Does your check reflect the new pay rate?

 

[Pi brat]

Why? Give me a none emotional, financial business reason why Parker would continue to run a more expensive separate operation?

Because he agreed to it in the MOU! Geez.

"h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in
this Paragraph 10."

"10. a. A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible
after the Effective Date."

Read closely. A SLI PROCESS CONSISTENT with, not "governed by"...........We agreed to it.

 

[Claxon]

So why do we still have separate ops? I believe we will see 3 way ops for about two more years. Possible longer if the west chooses.

Yes, it will most likely be two to three years. Perhaps during that time Parker can begin to carve off west flying as the AWA problem continues to be a thorn in his side to send a message.
Time marches on. The Nicolau Award becomes more and more of an insignificant relic. Just a minor blip that gave Cat3 productions and the Back Bay Band a brief and embarrassing rise and fall. Leonidas a brief and costly life. It is ending as we speak.

 

[cleardirect]

t
Do as I suggested and go READ the 9th opinion again. Through the MOU we ALL agreed to amend the TA and lay out a path to a new contract and SLI. We did not agree to accept the Nic award, as a matter of fact the NAC told us all not to vote for or against on that basis. If the Nic had been included it is likely that we would still be in the same old stalemate. YOU are reading more into it than is there.

"Indeed, the Supreme Court case that clarified that the DFR
was applicable during contract negotiations articulated its
holding in terms that imply a claim can be brought only after
negotiations are complete and a “final product” has been
reached."

What is the final product? If it is the Nic then why does the MOU have spell out that we will use listS now in effect? Why separate block hour requirements for east and west? Under the MOU the Nic never gets implement, hence your legal teams efforts to have it ruled illegal.

Judge Silver mentioned a LUP. Besides, if there wasn't one, why did you vote for it?

The contract Parker signed calls for separate ops to continue until the final US/AA merger!

What new path would that be? M/B can't be used for the east west integration.

The final product is a contract. The ninth did not include in their ruling another merger. There is no way they made a provision for a second redo before the east and west was finished. The ninth said a ratified contract was the end point for ripeness. We have a completed seniority list and a ratified contract implements it.

 

[Pi brat]

Has the POR happened?

Does your check reflect the new pay rate?

So do you think the company is going to come out the day after POR and say "The Nic is it boys"?

 

[Pi brat]

What new path would that be? M/B can't be used for the east west integration.

The final product is a contract. The ninth did not include in their ruling another merger. There is no way they made a provision for a second redo before the east and west was finished. The ninth said a ratified contract was the end point for ripeness. We have a completed seniority list and a ratified contract implements it.

I don't believe it does as the contract (let's call it that)we AGREED to specifically says that it doesn't.

 

[Claxon]

So do you think the company is going to come out the day after POR and say "The Nic is it boys"?

What will actually happen is another creepy encounter in a crew news west filming, where a deluded pilot attempts to incorrectly lecture his president in an area the president knows labor relations reality. It will end with "NO"

 

[cleardirect]

Here is another little interesting tidbit you may have over looked. The ninth did not say that they ruling was hard and fast. They used general principles. As we heard from judge Lane, the UCC, AMR, LCC and APA after 6 years this case is ripe.

No published case has expressly addressed when a DFR claim based on a union’s negotiation of a CBA becomes ripe. Thus, we apply the general principles underlying the ripeness doctrine and take guidance from our decisions regarding the related issue of when a DFR claim accrues for statute of limitations purposes in the context of the administration of a CBA.

Has there been anything that has removed judge Silver's requirement for usapa to have an LUP? So just ignoring the Nicolau is not an option. Negotiating a seniority neutral contract ignoring the nicolau is not an option. Using M/B to integrate east west is not an option.