August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

Has there been anything that has removed judge Silver's requirement for usapa to have an LUP? So just ignoring the Nicolau is not an option. Negotiating a seniority neutral contract ignoring the nicolau is not an option. Using M/B to integrate east west is not an option.

And you ignore that she told you a LUP. I think you are wrong and about to be disappointed. We'll see, but Judge Silver has not acted as you expected, has she?

 

[cleardirect]

So do you think the company is going to come out the day after POR and say "The Nic is it boys"?

What is there to stop the company from doing just that?

At the POR the company DJ appeal become moot. You did see the company ask for and got and extension. Why waste the time if it goes away? So no more company fear of a work action from the east.

We have a contract. The MOU is neutral but did not specifically say the Nicolau goes away but the T/A does say it will be the Nicolau. Does combinded ops save Parker money? Does declaring the nicolau the list solve his problem before integrating US Airways and american pilots? Yep! does Parker still have a legal problem from the west by not using the Nicolau? usapa can no longer screw up the merger. After the POR usapa becomes just background noise and the APA takes over.

So tell me why would Parker not announce it is the Nicolau?

 

[Claxon]

What is there to stop the company from doing just that?

At the POR the company DJ appeal become moot. You did see the company ask for and got and extension. Why waste the time if it goes away? So no more company fear of a work action from the east.

We have a contract. The MOU is neutral but did not specifically say the Nicolau goes away but the T/A does say it will be the Nicolau. Does combinded ops save Parker money? Does declaring the nicolau the list solve his problem before integrating US Airways and american pilots? Yep! does Parker still have a legal problem from the west by not using the Nicolau? usapa can no longer screw up the merger. After the POR usapa becomes just background noise and the APA takes over.

So tell me why would Parker not announce it is the Nicolau?

"WE HAVE A CONTRACT......" That one lie negated your entire argument.

 

[nevergiveup]

Here is another little interesting tidbit you may have over looked. The ninth did not say that they ruling was hard and fast. They used general principles. As we heard from judge Lane, the UCC, AMR, LCC and APA after 6 years this case is ripe.




Has there been anything that has removed judge Silver's requirement for usapa to have an LUP? So just ignoring the Nicolau is not an option. Negotiating a seniority neutral contract ignoring the nicolau is not an option. Using M/B to integrate east west is not an option.

If we were all asked to define a LUP, no two answers would be the same. Even more general principles. The courts will always distance themselves as much as possible; it's just the nature of how they do things.

 

[cleardirect]

And you ignore that she told you a LUP. I think you are wrong and about to be disappointed. We'll see, but Judge Silver has not acted as you expected, has she?

What?

Judge Silver ordered usapa to have an LUP. What am I ignoring? It is you that wants to ignore that fact.

She told usapa they need an LUP to use something other than the nicolau. She has not ruled that usapa has one.

Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award
and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the
result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is
running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective
bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an
appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.

Note judge Silver's words. new collective bargaining agreement. It does not say seniority list. It does not say when American is integrated.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court shall enter judgment dismissing
Counts I and III of the complaint and in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II
of the complaint stating US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach
its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.

That is very clear language. Can you point to a court order that has determined usapa has an LUP? Without an LUP usapa is on dangerous ground. Exchanging the Nicolau for some undetermined method is extremely dangerous ground. Other than usapa is any other party willing to step in that quick sand?

 

[cleardirect]

"WE HAVE A CONTRACT......" That one lie negated your entire argument.

Mike your own NAC called it a contract. Are you saying the NAC is lying?

We continued the week by meeting with US management to discuss contract implementation issues. Many aspects of the new contract will be implemented upon the POR, but others will take time to make effective.

Official usapa communication negated your own argument.

 

[Claxon]

Mike your own NAC called it a contract. Are you saying the NAC is lying?





Official usapa communication negated your own argument.

They merely stated some of the MOU will be incorporated in the UPCOMING contract you dunce. And they clearly stated there were more sections open.
No wonder Kirby is creeped by you. It gets tiring dealing with 5 yr old behavior where you try and falsely lecture.

 

[nevergiveup]

Mike your own NAC called it a contract. Are you saying the NAC is lying?





Official usapa communication negated your own argument.

So if the merger is not approved we still get the raise because we have a contract. Cool!

 

[PullUp]

What is there to stop the company from doing just that?

At the POR the company DJ appeal become moot. You did see the company ask for and got and extension. Why waste the time if it goes away? So no more company fear of a work action from the east.

We have a contract. The MOU is neutral but did not specifically say the Nicolau goes away but the T/A does say it will be the Nicolau. Does combinded ops save Parker money? Does declaring the nicolau the list solve his problem before integrating US Airways and american pilots? Yep! does Parker still have a legal problem from the west by not using the Nicolau? usapa can no longer screw up the merger. After the POR usapa becomes just background noise and the APA takes over.

So tell me why would Parker not announce it is the Nicolau?

We have all agreed to abandon previous contracts at the POR in order to adopt the MOU and AA's contract as our own.
The "T/A" we are living under now becomes landfill at the POR. Everything that the then former T/A encompasses will be finished, except for operational status-quo items that were agreed to, such as two separate seniority lists until integrated into the AA list.
The NIC list dies at the POR because it was part of the T/A that was never consummated into a contract.
Our new AA contract does not fulfill the T/A because the T/A will be dead, supplanted by the MOU terms, which become the new MTA.
Parker would be violating the terms of the MOU/MTA if he implemented the NIC list instead of remaining 'neutral', as pledged.
Oh, and Silver will not be ruling on this case - ever. That effectively hamstrings any further legal action, making AOL irrelevant.
Cheers.

 

[PullUp]

So if the merger is not approved we still get the raise because we have a contract. Cool!

Don't bet on it.

 

[Pi brat]

What?

Judge Silver ordered usapa to have an LUP. What am I ignoring? It is you that wants to ignore that fact.

She told usapa they need an LUP to use something other than the nicolau. She has not ruled that usapa has one.




Note judge Silver's words. new collective bargaining agreement. It does not say seniority list. It does not say when American is integrated.



That is very clear language. Can you point to a court order that has determined usapa has an LUP? Without an LUP usapa is on dangerous ground. Exchanging the Nicolau for some undetermined method is extremely dangerous ground. Other than usapa is any other party willing to step in that quick sand?

Of course she hasn't ruled on it, she hasn't ruled on anything. But she hasn't ruled against either and said this:

"THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I agree with you. But the
legitimated union purpose can be in representing everyone which
would also be the East Pilots and coming up with a combination;
right? You agree that there are a variety of different
seniority agreements --"

Despite the claims from the west that there isn't one, she said that. Thing is, she didn't need to order that USAPA had to have a LUP, that's a given.

 

[Pi brat]

What is there to stop the company from doing just that?

At the POR the company DJ appeal become moot. You did see the company ask for and got and extension. Why waste the time if it goes away? So no more company fear of a work action from the east.

We have a contract. The MOU is neutral but did not specifically say the Nicolau goes away but the T/A does say it will be the Nicolau. Does combinded ops save Parker money? Does declaring the nicolau the list solve his problem before integrating US Airways and american pilots? Yep! does Parker still have a legal problem from the west by not using the Nicolau? usapa can no longer screw up the merger. After the POR usapa becomes just background noise and the APA takes over.

So tell me why would Parker not announce it is the Nicolau?

You have some really strange Leonidas Logic. You want to say the the MOU is a contract, but that Parker doesn't have to follow the language in the contract. Even after Kirby clearly told Captain Gay that the Nicolau award will not be used. Whatever make you sleep better at night I guess.

 

[Phoenix]

What is there to stop the company from doing just that?

At the POR the company DJ appeal become moot. You did see the company ask for and got and extension. Why waste the time if it goes away? So no more company fear of a work action from the east.

We have a contract. The MOU is neutral but did not specifically say the Nicolau goes away but the T/A does say it will be the Nicolau. Does combinded ops save Parker money? Does declaring the nicolau the list solve his problem before integrating US Airways and american pilots? Yep! does Parker still have a legal problem from the west by not using the Nicolau? usapa can no longer screw up the merger. After the POR usapa becomes just background noise and the APA takes over.

So tell me why would Parker not announce it is the Nicolau?

"Nullity"

 

[Phoenix]

For all of you that deny the MOU is a contract ...

Of course it is a contract. A contingent one but none the less it makes a nullity of all previous contracts, because that is what we voted for it to do. So easy a flee on a caveman's butt could understand it. 🙄

 

[Claxon]

It boils down to labor costs. You have one group who is paid higher than the other. The company prefers to staff the airline with new hires and LOA cheap labor.

Lifetime earnings, america west pilots are by far, the lowest paid pilots in the history of commercial aviation.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2010%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/Pilots/Average%20Annual%20Wages%20and%20Salaries%20-%20PILOT%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm