August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

Just change the name from usapa to "scub bags are us" and Cleary has no suit.

Because they figure you have that one trademarked Mr "Integrity."

 

[RSVP767]

Yes keeping your contract. Like the T/A that states the result of arbitration will be used even if you don't like the deal.

No. More like the T/A that gave either side the ability to effectively veto the arbitration result through separate (East/West) ratification votes on the JCBA should the arbirtator stray too far off the reservation.

Guess what happened???

 

[RSVP767]

The MOU may replace the T/A but the unions duty does not change. They still have to represent ALL pilots fairly. Demanding a seniority integration that favors one side over they other does not follow that duty.

DOH is not arbitrary and represents ALL pilots equally and fairly. It does not favor one side over the other. You only percieve injustice because you have not worked as many years as your counterparts??? Should you be given what you have not earned??? Keep your seats, build protective fences....but do not ask for what you have not earned!

"A rational person could conclude that dovetailing seniority lists in a merger, treating service at either firm as of equal weight, without quotas or other preferences for either group of employees, serves the interests of labor as a whole. Seniority lists sometimes are endtailed. That is, the employees of the smaller firm are given seniority only from the date of the acquisition, effectively added at the end of the larger firm's seniority roster. Contentions that endtailing violates the union's duty have been unsuccessful. Frandsen v. Railway Clerks, 782 F.2d 674 (7th Cir.1986); Schick v. NLRB, 409 F.2d 395 (7th Cir.1969). The propriety of dovetailing, treating the two groups identically, follows directly. If the union's leaders took account of the fact that the workers at the larger firm preferred this outcome, so what? Majority rule is the norm. Equal treatment does not become forbidden because the majority prefers equality, even if formal equality bears more harshly on the minority. Cf. Employment Division v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872, 110 S.Ct. 1595, 108 L.Ed.2d 876 (1990). These principles dispose of the Ozark-TWA case."

 

[Keroseneuser]

If you voted for what was in the MOU. How would the east and west be integrated? What process if the Nicolau was killed by the MOU? Contrary to what the union told the members.

Before you say M/B that law can't be used to integrate mergers before 2007 and can't be used for merger of the same union. Read carefully it says M/B will be used to integrate US Airways and American pilots nothing about east and west pilots. So what does the MOU say about east and west?

Nothing precludes an agreed upon 3 way list integration when they sit down with APA. The west is represented on the board. really it is probably the only way out of the mess. Whatever protections are put in place protect each list the same. AOL can continue to say "NIC is it" but the premise that they use for that also ensures that the east can continue to say "DOH is it" And at some point in the future a court will finally rule for the final and last time after all appeals etc. But by then nobody will probably still be on the property that cares. The way the MOU is written ensures that the west wont be subjected to straight DOH prior to the APA integration, BUT it also ensures that it wont be the NIC prior to APA integration. AOL can of course continue the fight at their own risk to force the NIC....but then again so can the east DOH proponents continue their fight. The smart play is for all sides to just says screw it and integrate the 3 lists as they appear today and be done with it so we can move on(probably relative position with protections for all 3 lists). That seems to be where the current USAPA leadership and company is trying to go with it in the way the MOU is worded. The last 8 years is a mess best forgotten to the scrap heap of history. I as an east pilot I would have no problem with that, nobody I have spoken to on the east would have any problem with that. It seems that the only ones that are rabidly against just following the MOU and moving on is the west guys that want to be instant captains or instant widebody captains. Contrary to what you appear to believe, I cannot find anybody on the east that is a rabid DOH guy at this point. At least not on the line pilot level. On the other hand close to 100% of the east guys are rabid "nothing with NIC in it" types. So we can follow the MOU and go in with "lists" on the usairways side and a "list" on the AA side and call it good, or we can drag this crap on for another 2, 5, 10 years or whatever, possibly negate the MOU and our pay raises, possibly cause more years of separate operations and separate pay rates, and make a bunch of lawyers rich. Your call there chief. Per the MOU USAPA cannot force DOH on you, and you cannot force NIC on us. Keep the fight going and all bets are off, if the past 8 years tells us anything it is that this will not be settled in the courts anytime soon. If it could have been it would have been already. The way I see it all we can do at this point is F**k up the MOU pay raises for all of us and cause problems merging with APA by keeping this going in the court system.

 

[Beancounter]

Outstanding!!!!!


Just another scum bag move by a scum bag east pilots. Damn usapa just can not stop being sued.

You easties make me laugh.

Cleary is demanding $40,000 and that usapa stop using HIS trademark. For all you Cleary supporters way to go.

HA, HA, HA, HA!!!

Unbelievable. I heard he has also trademarked the title, "World's biggest douche bag." Guess I better send him a few bucks for typing it on the post🙂 I'll be sure to send the rolls of quarters in an enema bag.

Sorry for being crude, but that guy just pisses me off.

Bean

P.S. I wouldn't lump all east pilots in with Cleary. There are plenty of good people over there.

 

[Res Judicata]

Oh Cleary, you demented Piece of sh!t, when it comes to your entertainment value you never disappoint.

ANY WONDER WHY USAPA HAS BEEN SUCH AN STUNNING, CATOSTROPHIC FAILURE?!

HHHHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Shine on you CRAZY diamond...

 

[traderjake]

DOH is not arbitrary and represents ALL pilots equally and fairly. It does not favor one side over the other. You only percieve injustice because you have not worked as many years as your counterparts???

The arbitors of the Delta Northwest arbitration say you're wrong.

 

[RSVP767]

The arbitors of the Delta Northwest arbitration say you're wrong.

They chose another path and it worked out for them........doesn't say I'm wrong.

If our abomniation had only a 4 to 5 year disparity in LOS.....we would have been done with this mess years ago.

 

[RSVP767]

Nothing precludes an agreed upon 3 way list integration when they sit down with APA. The west is represented on the board. really it is probably the only way out of the mess. Whatever protections are put in place protect each list the same. AOL can continue to say "NIC is it" but the premise that they use for that also ensures that the east can continue to say "DOH is it" And at some point in the future a court will finally rule for the final and last time after all appeals etc. But by then nobody will probably still be on the property that cares. The way the MOU is written ensures that the west wont be subjected to straight DOH prior to the APA integration, BUT it also ensures that it wont be the NIC prior to APA integration. AOL can of course continue the fight at their own risk to force the NIC....but then again so can the east DOH proponents continue their fight. The smart play is for all sides to just says screw it and integrate the 3 lists as they appear today and be done with it so we can move on(probably relative position with protections for all 3 lists). That seems to be where the current USAPA leadership and company is trying to go with it in the way the MOU is worded. The last 8 years is a mess best forgotten to the scrap heap of history. I as an east pilot I would have no problem with that, nobody I have spoken to on the east would have any problem with that. It seems that the only ones that are rabidly against just following the MOU and moving on is the west guys that want to be instant captains or instant widebody captains. Contrary to what you appear to believe, I cannot find anybody on the east that is a rabid DOH guy at this point. At least not on the line pilot level. On the other hand close to 100% of the east guys are rabid "nothing with NIC in it" types. So we can follow the MOU and go in with "lists" on the usairways side and a "list" on the AA side and call it good, or we can drag this crap on for another 2, 5, 10 years or whatever, possibly negate the MOU and our pay raises, possibly cause more years of separate operations and separate pay rates, and make a bunch of lawyers rich. Your call there chief. Per the MOU USAPA cannot force DOH on you, and you cannot force NIC on us. Keep the fight going and all bets are off, if the past 8 years tells us anything it is that this will not be settled in the courts anytime soon. If it could have been it would have been already. The way I see it all we can do at this point is F**k up the MOU pay raises for all of us and cause problems merging with APA by keeping this going in the court system.

Agreed. Well said!

 

[Pi brat]

P.S. I wouldn't lump all east pilots in with Cleary. There are plenty of good people over there.

Thanks Bean.

 

[traderjake]

If our abomniation had only a 4 to 5 year disparity in LOS.....we would have been done with this mess years ago.

It was a seniority arbitration, not LOS.

 

[nycbusdriver]

This is so simple. Just change the name from usapa to "scub bags are us" and Cleary has no suit. Because it was usapa that owed him the money not this entirely new union that had nothing to do with that old union.

Or, better yet, and oh so much more descriptive: Scum Bags Are West!

 

[Piedmont1984]

Does anyone know the status of the two former USAPA officers MC and RM? Can't find their names on the permanent bid.

 

[electricjet98]

Do east pilots that are on a Medical Leave appear on your permanent bid?

 

[RSVP767]

It was a seniority arbitration, not LOS.

Yeah, I get it....Sherlock. But a Seniority arbitration that resulted in no greater than a 5 year LOS discrepency.......something that probably would have flown here.