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August 2013 Pilot Discussion

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Voluntary or involuntary makes no difference. I stayed out as long as possible as well because I started and still have another business. Bottom line most senior furloughed pilot is 70 percent. And NYC bus is right if both sides are a little pissed then things are good.

Makes all the difference in the world. A voluntary furlough has a proven expectation of immediate recall, where an involuntary furlough not so much. In the case of the pre-merger US, all furloughs were involuntary, and all had what amounted to zero expectation of return, that is why they are below Odell.

In the present context, all West pilots still on furlough are Voluntary, and they are all senior to Colello.

 
Thanks for the update 767jetz.

The UAL group had a fantastic lawyer in Freund, and I am sure a good merger committee dedicated to a fair outcome.

That is all it takes, and the reason why the east failed miserably. The east never wanted a fair outcome. The east wanted to steal all they could, and are still trying.

Just look at Reed Richards latest post. 8 years and a billion dollars lost on LOA93, and he still thinks the east will steal the benefits of the merger for themselves. Then you have Claxon, reliving 1980s history as a rationalization as to why he deserves more than the West pilot senior to him. Oh, and let's not forget End of ALPA, start of uscaba, another whining malcontent unable to realize he got more in the Nic than he deserved, but hates it because he did not get to steal another persons job!
 
Makes all the difference in the world. A voluntary furlough has a proven expectation of immediate recall, where an involuntary furlough not so much. In the case of the pre-merger US, all furloughs were involuntary, and all had what amounted to zero expectation of return, that is why they are below Odell.

In the present context, all West pilots still on furlough are Voluntary, and they are all senior to Colello.



In your opinion, was it reasonable for the arbitrator to place involuntary furloughs above active pilots?
 
Name a recent SLI that didn't go to arbitration. The west's line in the sand of not a single furlough above Odell had much to do with it too. How could the east agree to go along with that?

I just thought I might get back the seat I held, IN MY BASE, back in 2001. The one that was still there, with the aircraft we brought to the merger. Silly me.

You never answered my question. When did US liquidate?

Your question makes no sense. Either that or you're being obtuse. No merger, no US(liquidate).

Bean
 
Your question makes no sense. Either that or you're being obtuse. No merger, no US(liquidate).

Career expectations, that's a big part of why the Nics the Nic. Don't get mad at us, we were just following the rules/policy.

Bean
 
Typical. The worm turns on the West class once again as the UAL merger crushes their logic. And they retreat back to the "who saved who" argument, as if one pilot on a sinking ship has less value than another on the same ship in a different location. RR
 
In your opinion, was it reasonable for the arbitrator to place involuntary furloughs above active pilots?

First let me say, I have not read the award, so, I do not have a grip on the reasoning.

However, to answere your question.

Yes, it is reasonable to place involuntary furloughs above active pilot in this instance. My understanding is that there was a contested recall process in place in which UAL furloughs had to be recalled to the bottom of the CAL list regardless of their UAL seniority. That is also why there are Voluntary UAL furloughs who stayed out. They are flying Capt at Qatar and Korean etc...and were not coming back to the bottom of the CAL list..

Now before you try and twist what I am saying in a follow on post, the UAL/CAL integration is it's own animal. It is relevant to the Nic award only in the fact that it was concluded via binding arbitration. The methodology is pretty much irrelevant to our case, simply because it was not our case.
 
Typical. The worm turns on the West class once again as the UAL merger crushes their logic. And they retreat back to the "who saved who" argument, as if one pilot on a sinking ship has less value than another on the same ship in a different location. RR

Actually, it is the scab unions actions and methodology that has once again been proven to not be the logical outcome.

The who saved who argument is pretty much irrelevant, however, I am not going to let you forget it.

The sailor who was already blown overboard (I.e. The 1800 east furloughs) were not on the sinking ship, and neither were the West pilots!
 
But the fact is, longevity WAS given weight. Something that was conspicuously absent in the Nicolau abortion.
OK, that's a true statement. But consider the facts.

The two mergers were quite different. Not just the fact that one was in bankruptcy, but also that the merger policy was different, AND (not to be minimized) the east never considered or suggested anything but a hard line, all-or-nothing approach. So in the end Nicolau gave you nothing. (With regard to DOH/LOS. He did give you over 500 positions on top and 2 to 1 upgrades, right?)

Katz has a bad track record, and for the life of me I can't figure out why people keep hiring him. He swings for the fences and strikes out every time. Look, the UA proposal pissed off a lot of UA pilots because they felt (wrongly so) that arbitration was another form of negotiation, and we should have been swinging for the fence also. The truth is, that does nothing but piss the arbitrators off. So our proposal, while not fantastic for us, was well reasoned, measured, creative, and strictly followed policy. We gave the arbitrators something that was 100% defensible for them. It gave some things away, but protected us from the blood bath that the CAL proposal would have been, stapling half of us to the bottom. In such a high stakes game, it was a defensive play that worked.

In fact here's a little insight into how things went down. We were told early on that we should focus mostly on tangible qualifiers like category, status, and LOS. We were told not to rely heavily on career expectations, since it is subjective and much harder to defend or predict the future. That's the one area we conceded a bit, because our expectations were much greater. There are furloughed UA pilots that, absent a merger, and strictly based on age 65 retirements would have ended their careers as widebody captains. With only 17 B777's and a handful of B767's, there simply were not enough seats to accommodate all the CAL pilots absent a merger. A vast majority were destined to retire as NB captains. Now we have to share those seats and they have access they never would have had otherwise. It's a big concession. But the trade off, again, was getting some of our furloughed pilots SOME of their longevity. Plus the fact that our method was adopted. So we controlled and minimized the loss rather than go all in and suffer a catastrophic loss. Freund played chess at a chess match, while Katz came in with a marked deck of cards and tried to play poker.

The final result was very close to relative seniority. I gained about 1.5%. Others lost around 3%. Instead of retiring between 100-200, I will now retire at over 450. I lose almost 8 years of LOS compared to the CAL guys I'm grouped with. We now have to share our desirable bases with CAL. in less than 5 years all fences go away and CAL can start flying our 747's. Oh well. In the end we will deal with the new reality, move on, and focus as one group on the next contract openers in about 18 months.

You guys decided to start a civil war and end your careers on bankruptcy wages and work rules chasing the "gold standard" DOH that never will see the light of day. Seems ridiculous to most that you would give up so much in earnings and quality of life over what amounts to a stripe on your shoulder, ego, and misguided principle. We now have former UA f/o's who may never see a captain seat or a widebody before they retire. But they will still out earn you guys in their career. But hey, it's your money, your career, your choice. And it is certainly a CHOICE. You are not victims of anyone but yourselves. Unfortunately you are dragging down my friends on the west with you. Not to mention dragging the industry down and destroying pattern bargaining. Thankfully now, UA and DL, along with American hopefully, will repair that damage.
 
Not sitting so well on your list Jetz are you....Your merger specifically mentions avoiding the Nicolau mistake. Clearly mentioned. Nicolau got it wrong. Not defaming him, he simply blew it.
 
Voluntary or involuntary makes no difference.

Bottom line most senior furloughed pilot is 70 percent.

Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. Voluntary and involuntary is a a HUGE difference. I could have taken a volutary furlough, and still would end up where I did because you can't re-order a standing list. Furloughs come off the bottom. We actually had one 747 captain take a furlough and then eventually accept a recall to the CAL side flying as a 737 f/o at his old pay rate. He was the highest paid f/o at CAL. He eventually came back to the UA side into his old position before SLI. If he had stayed out a little longer, would you still claim that the senior furloughed pilot was all the way up to 25% and awarded 747 captain????

Get a clue. You guys only want to believe what's in your head, regardless of facts. A voluntary furlough accepts a slot from the bottom so a junior guy can keep working. That furlough spot still belongs to that junior pilot.
 
Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. Voluntary and involuntary is a a HUGE difference. I could have taken a volutary furlough, and still would end up where I did because you can't re-order a standing list. Furloughs come off the bottom. We actually had one 747 captain take a furlough and then eventually accept a recall to the CAL side flying as a 737 f/o at his old pay rate. He was the highest paid f/o at CAL. He eventually came back to the UA side into his old position before SLI. If he had stayed out a little longer, would you still claim that the senior furloughed pilot was all the way up to 25% and awarded 747 captain????

Get a clue. You guys only want to believe what's in your head, regardless of facts. A voluntary furlough accepts a slot from the bottom so a junior guy can keep working. That furlough spot still belongs to that junior pilot.

Bottom line is you got a fair merger. Like NWA DAL. Nicolau blew it.
Now the Nicolau is a glaring example, discussed in your merger to be avoided.
The west will never get the Nic. Never.
 
Actually, it is the scab unions actions and methodology that has once again been proven to not be the logical outcome.

The who saved who argument is pretty much irrelevant, however, I am not going to let you forget it.

The sailor who was already blown overboard (I.e. The 1800 east furloughs) were not on the sinking ship, and neither were the West pilots!


What is the only " accepted " seniority list? According to No Nic4 us it is the one the company just shoved back across the table. Rather humorous.
You kids need to stop sending money to Marty.
 
Jetz,

Thanks for posting, but it is going to fall on deaf ears.

I will say this though, the West is not going to back down from this fight til uscaba is gone, and I for one appreciate an other airline poster such as yourself coming here and being reasonable.
 
OK, that's a true statement. But consider the facts.

The two mergers were quite different. Not just the fact that one was in bankruptcy, but also that the merger policy was different.....

" The evolution of ALPA Merger Policy
including, most importantly, the modifications following George Nicolau’s Award in the
America West-US Airway case, is central to the resolution of this case."

The merger policy changed because the US Airways East pilots said no more and kicked alpa's ever loving living ass off the property. All you UAL pilots were treated fairly due to the East's pilots work.
 
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