August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Claxon]

I don’t think Snap has called us scabs, but his has made light of our accidents. Pretty rancid in my opinion, especially considering some us lost family and coworkers on said incidents. I would accept a straight apology from Snap right now on that single issue. Were he to do so I would never bring it up again in regard to him personally. RR

Apparently SNAPTHIS is telling the truth on the racial issue according to a source who was there. Therefore he deserves my apology.

 

[snapthis]

I don’t think Snap has called us scabs, but his has made light of our accidents. Pretty rancid in my opinion, especially considering some us lost family and coworkers on said incidents. I would accept a straight apology from Snap right now on that single issue. Were he to do so I would never bring it up again in regard to him personally. RR

You are correct, I don't call you scabs. I have pointed out your record when you call our pilot group rookies.

 

[Reed Richards]

A good testimony to just how screwed ALPA was and how their political agenda changed with the times. Unfortunately, it got so screwed up that it took our current situation to break the mold. And people think that ALPA had a LUP.....BS!

Breeze, it may not have come through in my post, but in the UAL 570 issue I am giving ALPA the thumbs up. I was an ALPA rep and already had a 20 year pin when the NIc went down and everything changed. ALPA lost their way over an extended period. Unfortunately we were the recipients of one of their most complete failures. RR

 

[Claxon]

Trader, I never meant anything about either of us being "better union pilots" in reference to our UAL experiences. I am simply telling certain assh...s that I will no longer accept the casual use of the word Scab when it is directed at me personally here. I consider it one of the worst things I can be called, equal in my mind to a racial or religious slur. I am going to start ratcheting up my responses to being called that, until either the moderators take action against those using it, or I am kicked off for the intensity of my replies.
I will say to everyone else it was a very difficult time to be searching for an airline job. None of us wanted to do the wrong thing. All I had to go on was letters from ALPA telling me what to do and my friends in the AF Reserve, a few who were UAL pilots or furloughs, many who were EAL, PI, and a few US Air. There was no internet to link in to everyone else, much less to ALPA or the UAL guys.
Trader was in an especially confusing time. ALPA told us to GO TO TRAINING and get qualified. Then on the day of the strike told everyone to stand down on all activities, even interviews. I have no doubt you were called, UAL had a large unit in place trying to staff the airline, and were counting on confusion to get guys to show up, even if it was just for an interview. Other than the real scabs that crossed, and the hired guns that made themselves available, common sense ruled. You obviously did the right thing, sad if it did cost you a job later. I was indeed offered my job back in December of 1985, but chose to stay at US Air because I was A scale. A simple A or B decision I will always question, but would do the same thing with the info I had. I initially was mad at the UAL pilots for not fixing our problems in the back to work agreement, but in hindsight ALPA fixed their wrongs, with over 6 years of effort. Add to that the UAL guys were the only ones that actually went on strike with the B scale as one of their issues. Everyone else rolled over. All the majors. Here is a good link to the original case that ALPA lost in Federal court. It’s a great read, you will see most of our issues here gone over. http://www.leagle.com/decision/19911239765FSupp474_11156
Deep in the document I linked is an excellent discussion of how seniority lives in the contract. Also, here is an excerpt that I like to point out when folks talk about final and binding:

“47. Left with no alternative, ALPA acquiesced. Thus, on April 3, 1987, United and ALPA executed the 1987 letter of agreement setting forth the following terms:

a. United agreed to immediately extend employment offers to each member of the 570 for a pilot's position. United Ex. 527 ¶ 1.

b. United would adjust the seniority date of each member of the group of 570 from May 17, 1985 to November 9, 1985, the actual recall date of the first member of the 570. Id. ¶ 2.

c. ALPA agreed that the seniority dates and numbers assigned to the 570 would be final. In particular, ALPA agreed that:

it will never seek to challenge [United]'s action in that regard in court or before an arbitrator, nor will it seek to raise the issue of the "Group of 570" relative seniority position as part of any future negotiations between [United] and [ALPA] regarding any subject whatsoever.”

But they DID raise the issue again, again, and again. And eventually, as you will read in the link, put all the 570 where they belonged. You can do your own Google and find the Appeal (lost) and eventually the trip to SCOTUS where ALPA won. Doing the right thing is doing the right thing. I will praise the ALPA of old as doing just that. No matter what they signed, no matter how many times they lost in court, they went forward and fixed a wrong. RR

Interesting RR

 

[mrbreeze]

Breeze, it may not have come through in my post, but in the UAL 570 issue I am giving ALPA the thumbs up. I was an ALPA rep and already had a 20 year pin when the NIc went down and everything changed. ALPA lost their way over an extended period. Unfortunately we were the recipients of one of their most complete failures. RR

RR, I understand....those were trying times...tough indeed, I had friends involved at this time. No disrespect intended at all. You guys did the best that you could at the time. Unfortunately, ALPA seemed to get out of control, since your incident.....that is why they no longer exist here.

 

[Reed Richards]

You are correct, I don't call you scabs. I have pointed out your record when you call our pilot group rookies.

Step away from our situation and read what you just posted. You make light of an accident, where "ours" have perished, and you actually think being called a "rookie" is a reasonable excuse to do so? RR

 

[Reed Richards]

RR, I understand....those were trying times...tough indeed, I had friends involved at this time. No disrespect intended at all. You guys did the best that you could at the time. Unfortunately, ALPA seemed to get out of control, since your incident.....that is why they no longer exist here.

Oh no, no disrespect noted at all. Thanks. RR

 

[Black Swan]

RR, I understand....those were trying times...tough indeed, I had friends involved at this time. No disrespect intended at all. You guys did the best that you could at the time. Unfortunately, ALPA seemed to get out of control, since your incident.....that is why they no longer exist here.

Our own pilots and their leaders deserve much of the blame. Too many believed the stories guys like Mike Tosi and Bill Pollock and the others put out. They carried the water for management for years, their RJ sell jobs were epic.

 

[Hate2fly]

One of your East reps addressed one of our ALPA reps who happens to African American as Nig-ard-ly. Well there was a Stars and Bars slip-up if I have ever seen one.

It makes me wonder what goes on in some of your meetings down there in Charlotte.

Probably something like this...

http://www.youtubeskip.com/watch?v=YRdQIuvZvLs

Snap,

The rep that said that is an idiot compass correction guy. I have zero respect for the compass guys. It was embarrassing!

Hate

 

[Claxon]

One of your East reps addressed one of our ALPA reps who happens to African American as Nig-ard-ly. Well there was a Stars and Bars slip-up if I have ever seen one.

It makes me wonder what goes on in some of your meetings down there in Charlotte.

Probably something like this...

http://www.youtubesk...h?v=YRdQIuvZvLs

New low in america west pilots desperate strategy. Accusing a group of East pilots of being racist. Unsubstantiated. A new low. You are a pig.

The next thing you know, you will probably compare your west pilot scab goals and self perceived struggle to that of the holocaust. Nevermind, you pigs already did that.

The following two america west pilot produced videos are america west pilots using unfortunate moments in history to further their scab goals.

 

[snapthis]

Step away from our situation and read what you just posted. You make light of an accident, where "ours" have perished, and you actually think being called a "rookie" is a reasonable excuse to do so? RR

Fair enough.

I will step away from that area but the rookie comments are not backed up by statistics, RR.

 

[snapthis]

Snap,

The rep that said that is an idiot compass correction guy. I have zero respect for the compass guys. It was embarrassing!

Hate

About the clip.
http://www.youtubeskip.com/watch?v=YRdQIuvZvLs

It has more to do with the silliness of this situation rather seeing you all as racists.

I picture Luv up there on the horse saying, I'm confused bags or no bags? Pi is out there saying well maybe this bag thing was not such a good idea. The same thing he said about the Cactus 18.

I give credit to you and BS for not defending this person.

 

[Claxon]

One of your East reps addressed one of our ALPA reps who happens to African American as Nig-ard-ly. Well there was a Stars and Bars slip-up if I have ever seen one.

It makes me wonder what goes on in some of your meetings down there in Charlotte.

Probably something like this...

http://www.youtubesk...h?v=YRdQIuvZvLs

Accusing East pilots, unsubstantiated, of being racist. The next thing you know you america west pilot slobs will use the 9 11 situation to your advantage. Never mind, the Ceo's that are trying to push the AMR, Us Airways merger, already set the bar low. They tried to use the misery of 9 11 to further their corporate greed for a government sponsered loan. Now that team is back again to gain more toys, courtesy of the tax payers and traveling public.

To order a picture of this, click the link below.


http://www.gettyimag...s-photo/1163879

 

[Claxon]

About the clip.
http://www.youtubesk...h?v=YRdQIuvZvLs

It has more to do with the silliness of this situation rather seeing you all as racists.

Bull ####.

 

[Reed Richards]

Fair enough.

I will step away from that area but the rookie comments are not backed up by statistics, RR.

New low in america west pilots desperate strategy. Accusing a group of East pilots of being racist. Unsubstantiated. A new low. You are a pig.

The next thing you know, you will probably compare your west pilot scab goals and self perceived struggle to that of the holocaust. Nevermind, you pigs already did that.

The following two america west pilot produced videos are america west pilots using unfortunate moments in history to further their scab goals.

There will come a day (soon I hear) when the West Class swastika references and Nazi humor videos come home to roost. There are organizations that file lawsuits based on such very public excursions. They are being provided evidence as we speak, and promise action soon. Claiming you are only having "union fun" will not work when time to settle comes. I also hope those involved have read the Company ethics policy. How stupid can one be, to actually publish a list of credits on such videos. Guess these teenagers think they are immune to litigation because they are just being cute. How stupid to think that 1) there are no Jewish US Airways pilots and 2) that this type of humor is fair game in a seniority dispute. RR