August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[snapthis]

Never forget. US Airways was a profitable and successful company for almost 60 years until airplanes flew into buildings 14 years ago . RR

But you ignore the company when they said that without the merger AWA would have almost certainly filed chp 11, dropped about 15% of your flying, furloughed and downsized. Typical.

This merger helped both companies. Now, tell me again, exactly what was YOUR contribution to this merger?

The entitlement minded West Class is now living the reality of what they brought to the merger. Personally, none of us brought anything. Collectively we saved each other's rear ends. The actual value of the two corporations prior to the merger is hard to quantify, but looking at current separate ops is clear to me where the moneys were and are made. Now that the merger is dead, and they have been denied their windfall, it is apparent PHX will have little to offer going forward. They should be cheering the little scope they have, and thank their stars for our own scope (the scope they would so easily have tossed in the trash to get the Kirby proposal) Just as telling, one of them actually makes light of the fact US Airways closed the LAS crew base for economic reasons, and how that is somehow comparable to DCA shutting down the actual airport due to a terrorist attack. I want to say it one more time, especially today. We were a successful and thriving airline prior to 911, and our employees should not be treated as second class citizens in any merger because of that event. There is a reason the investors put the two airlines together. The reason was to preserve the long running cash flow giant that had always been US Airways for over a half century. RR

First of all, 9/11 was 12 years ago, not 14. You might want to go back and check your math.
prop·a·gan·da

1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2.the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.

You two spread it to further your objectives. The fact is HP was hiring and US Airways was facing chapter 7 with a similar number of furloughs to match the number of pilots flying at the time of the acquisition of AAA in 2005.

The East's biggest complaint was the new hires at America West being placed above furloughed US Airways pilots. What about the new hires at US Airways? Where did they fit in the picture?

One airline was hiring the other facing Ch7. You two would have us believe that US Airways purchased HP, moved the HQ to Tempe, AZ and hired Doug Parker as the CEO.

 

[snapthis]

But you ignore the company when they said that without the merger AWA would have almost certainly filed chp 11, dropped about 15% of your flying, furloughed and downsized. Typical.

This merger helped both companies. Now, tell me again, exactly what was YOUR contribution to this merger?

My contribution? What was your contribution to HP prior to 2005 which put Parker in position to acquire US Airways?

 

[traderjake]

The reason was to preserve the long running cash flow giant that had always been US Airways for over a half century. RR

USAirways was such a cash flow giant that we went bankrupt twice.

USAir made money before deregualtion, that was a long time ago.

 

[CallawayGolf]

When the merger was announced Parker proudly proclaimed that the combined company could be profitable with oil at the unbelievable price of around $55 a barrel. It went to what, $140? LAS was always a marginally profitable hub for you guys, largely operated at night. It was not sustainable at $140 with the merger and certainly wouldn't have been without it.

I fully agree with you on this point PI. LAS Ops and perhaps all of AWA were not likely to survive the 2008 financial crisis and the $140b oil price spike without going to to chapter 11 if nothing had changed since 2005. Of course no one really knows what that would have looked for Parker and AWA. What would the change in landscape look like with US liquidated? Could Parker have been more successful at merging with DL without the east coast ops that US brought with the merger and without the stigma of having HP/US pilots locked in a protracted seniority battle? All good questions for which there could never be an answer. Even as it was, the external economic events or 2007/2008 nearly sunk the combined LCC even though it was fiscally more healthy than either US/HP was stand-alone.

No doubt the merger created a greater degree of financial health sufficient enough, with the right leadership, to get through those tough times where the two independent companies would not have. So, both HP/US are better off merged than unmerged. If all of that is true (or at least hard to deny with sound reasoning), why not just discard any and all conversations about "career expectations" and just deal with the reality of where the two pilot groups were in 2005 from a seniority basis and an active/furloughed status basis? Every day of active service from 9/27/2005 in the left or the right seat is a gift that came with the merger with a fully reset expectation of upgrades, except as may be afforded by a fully integrated seniority list, or not as the case may be?

 

[snapthis]

I don't even think he is admitting it closed for economic reasons. He mention the effects of 2005, so I guessed he blamed it on the merger, too stupid to even remember the great recession of 2008, the run up in fuel prices and the disaster of the former AWA managements fuel hedging program and auction rate securities purchase.

I'm smart enough to know when I am being called stupid by a dolt.

Senior Vice President Flight Operations/InFlight

_______ is US Airways’ senior vice president, flight operations. _______ oversees the airline’s flight operations, flight training, simulator engineering, flight technical publications and contract training. Prior to his current role, he held the position of vice president, flight operations, from 2002 to 2006.

____began his aviation career in the Air Force and flew T-37s, T-38s, T-33s, A-7s, B-52s and KC-135s. He hired on as a line pilot with USAir in 1980, and has subsequently held the positions of check airman; designated FAA examiner; manager, flight training; assistant chief pilot; senior director, flight operations and vice president, flight operations____ has been flight qualified on the Boeing 727, 737, 757 and 767 as well as the McDonnell Douglas DC9, and is currently qualified to operate the Airbus A330.

______ retired from the military after seven years of active duty and 13 years in the Pennsylvania Air National Guard. He holds a Bachelor of Science degree in aeronautical science from Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Fla.


Vice President, Flight Operations

As Vice President, Flight Operations, Captain_____oversees the flight technical operations and flight training groups, maintaining the airline’s operations specifications and overseeing operations compliance with all Federal Aviation Administration requirements. He also supervises the airline’s daily flight operations and the pilot and administrative management teams.____ reports directly to Senior Vice President Flight Operations/InFlight, Captain__________.

Most recently,________ was managing director, flight operations. ______ has been with US Airways for more than two decades and has flown the BAC 1-11, DC9, the Boeing 737 and the Airbus A320 family. In 1996, he was named assistant chief pilot at the Washington D.C./Dulles crew base. Moving up through the pilot management ranks, he was named managing director, flight operations in 2005

Fill in the blanks, Pi^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Do you think those two have any influence on the day-to-day ops post 2005? Rumor has it there are some casualties with mergers and acquisitions.

I find it ironic that management brought over from US Airways would close Vegas for "economic reasons"

 

[Pi brat]

My contribution? What was your contribution to HP prior to 2005 which put Parker in position to acquire US Airways?

None, why do you ask? You want more than you brought to the party and try to justify it with "you were liquidating! you were liquidating!"

The fact that US was facing possible ch7 was of great value to Parker. That allowed him to get the whole company with NO investment, and use it's cash and that raised from others to pay off both ATSB loans and recapitalize the company. US Airways never, ever filed for Chp7. That is irrefutable and "was" shouldn't be brought up, because it didn't.

We will never know if US would have filed ch 7. We will never know if AWA would have filed ch 11, and then thrived, or limped along, or filed ch 7 then ch11. NONE of those events happened so they shouldn't be a factor.

 

[Pi brat]

I fully agree with you on this point PI. LAS Ops and perhaps all of AWA were not likely to survive the 2008 financial crisis and the $140b oil price spike without going to to chapter 11 if nothing had changed since 2005. Of course no one really knows what that would have looked for Parker and AWA. What would the change in landscape look like with US liquidated? Could Parker have been more successful at merging with DL without the east coast ops that US brought with the merger and without the stigma of having HP/US pilots locked in a protracted seniority battle? All good questions for which there could never be an answer. Even as it was, the external economic events or 2007/2008 nearly sunk the combined LCC even though it was fiscally more healthy than either US/HP was stand-alone.

No doubt the merger created a greater degree of financial health sufficient enough, with the right leadership, to get through those tough times where the two independent companies would not have. So, both HP/US are better off merged than unmerged. If all of that is true (or at least hard to deny with sound reasoning), why not just discard any and all conversations about "career expectations" and just deal with the reality of where the two pilot groups were in 2005 from a seniority basis and an active/furloughed status basis? Every day of active service from 9/27/2005 in the left or the right seat is a gift that came with the merger with a fully reset expectation of upgrades, except as may be afforded by a fully integrated seniority list, or not as the case may be?

I absolutely agree with the first part of this post. We don't know what would have happened to either airline had the merger not happened, all we can do is guess and lay odds. AWA may have merged with DL. Bill Gates may have cleaned out his change drawer and decided to turn US into a powerhouse airline. Odds are slim on either, but you just don't know, so that guesswork shouldn't be the basis of a SLI.

Now this on this, I kind of agree. "why not just discard any and all conversations about "career expectations" and just deal with the reality of where the two pilot groups were in 2005 from a seniority basis and an active/furloughed status basis?" You want to discard the "career expectations, but keep the active/furloughed status-but only applied to 2005, not 2007 with the list Nicolau used. I think you have to look at career expectations, but in a very narrow way, not with inflated dreams of grandeur, because in 6 months this business can be completely different from today.

My view is take a snapshot on the day the merger is announced of the seniority list and fleet. Run those out until the last guy on the list retires. See what levels of relative seniority certain pilots hit, say every tenth one, then go back and weight a straight relative position slot so that the most guys as possible hit those gateways. THEN, put up small fences to avoid short term windfalls.

This is very similar to the view aquagreen had for our SLI back in 2005. Had it happened that way, I don't think we would have been here.

 

[Pi brat]

I'm smart enough to know when I am being called stupid by a dolt.

Has that happened to you before?

 

[CallawayGolf]

I absolutely agree with the first part of this post. We don't know what would have happened to either airline had the merger not happened, all we can do is guess and lay odds. AWA may have merged with DL. Bill Gates may have cleaned out his change drawer and decided to turn US into a powerhouse airline. Odds are slim on either, but you just don't know, so that guesswork shouldn't be the basis of a SLI.

Now this on this, I kind of agree. "why not just discard any and all conversations about "career expectations" and just deal with the reality of where the two pilot groups were in 2005 from a seniority basis and an active/furloughed status basis?" You want to discard the "career expectations, but keep the active/furloughed status-but only applied to 2005, not 2007 with the list Nicolau used. I think you have to look at career expectations, but in a very narrow way, not with inflated dreams of grandeur, because in 6 months this business can be completely different from today.

My view is take a snapshot on the day the merger is announced of the seniority list and fleet. Run those out until the last guy on the list retires. See what levels of relative seniority certain pilots hit, say every tenth one, then go back and weight a straight relative position slot so that the most guys as possible hit those gateways. THEN, put up small fences to avoid short term windfalls.

This is very similar to the view aquagreen had for our SLI back in 2005. Had it happened that way, I don't think we would have been here.

And had that been the result of negotiations between the two MECs prior to Mediation/Arbitration or if that would have been the result of the NIC Award itself, then such a scenario would have my full support also. It's not a reality today and it probably never will be. Such things are out of anyone's control at this point. USAPA can accept the NIC or continue to fend off legal challenges to its position by west pilots and the Company. West pilots can continue to unify under an anti-USAPA mindset or they can disband leaving the individuals to decide for themselves to take up a DFR claim against USAPA. The Company can do little else but reject non-NIC proposals until a federal court definitively determines their liability for not enforcing the terms of the TA. That's about it in my opinion.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Now, tell me again, exactly what was YOUR contribution to this merger?

Easy to answer that one:

The AWA pilots provided the compensation target for US Airways to aim for in bankruptcy. Unfortunately, the "let my daddy vote" panty-wetters allowed them to overshoot.

 

[snapthis]

Has that happened to you before?

I guess so..by a brat.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Uh, selective memory? USAir nearly liquidated in the early 90's.

In your dreams.

USAir never even had to enter chapter 11, let alone chapter 7. What airline was it that filed chapter 11, though, in the early 90s? June, 1991?

Buehler? Buehler?

 

[Claxon]

In your dreams.

USAir never even had to enter chapter 11, let alone chapter 7. What airline was it that filed chapter 11, though, in the early 90s? June, 1991?

Buehler? Buehler?

I will take Franke Air aka America West for one hundred Alex. The low compensation pensionless POS that spread like cancer to honorable legacy carriers.
The west group has selective memory and usage of their matching two bankruptcies. They use yours to justify attempting to steal your jobs.They match exactly. Compare compensation over time, and they sink to the bottom. Even today they rank right at the bottom tier because they worked against east pilots raises, further maintaining their lowly status. Over time, their compensation is the bottom. Bar none.

 

[Claxon]

Uh, selective memory? USAir nearly liquidated in the early 90's. Johnny quest and hadji rescued you. Your entire career has been punctuated by various entities saving you from liquidation. The profits of 1985 have infinitesimally little relevance to today. Just like the number assigned as your, "date of hire"

Why do you call a man of Indian nationality, Rakesh Ganwal "hadji?"
He is a graduate of the Indian Technical Institute and could easily outwit you in a nanosecond.
Just one more example of the dimwit Metroyet of AWA.

 

[Freighterguynow]

First of all, 9/11 was 12 years ago, not 14. You might want to go back and check your math.
prop·a·gan·da

1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2.the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.

You two spread it to further your objectives.

As do you 3.

Separate ops:


sep·a·rate

adjective

forming or viewed as a unit apart or by itself.

synonyms: set apart, detached, fenced off, cut off, segregated, isolated;

synonyms: split (up), break up, part, pull apart, divide;

form a distinction or boundary between (people, places, or things).

synonyms: partition, divide, come between, keep apart;

synonyms: disconnect, detach, disengage, uncouple, unyoke, disunite, disjoin;