BOD Meeting News.
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North by Northwest
Veteran
I am. Esp. at your "facts"...darlin.
Read this
U.S. air carriers slow to replace their aging fleets
Click-2-Listen
By JEFF BAILEY
The New York Times
Sunday, November 11, 2007
It's not just flights that are getting delayed. U.S. airlines are also putting off purchases of new planes, meaning the nation's fleet of aircraft, on average, is aging right along with the passengers.
Northwest Airlines, for example, flies 109 of the oldest jetliners in the country, DC-9s, with an average age of 35 years. Northwest has yet to decide how to replace the DC-9s, which could remain in service another five years or more.
American Airlines operates a fleet of 300 older MD-80s, a model that guzzles fuel and lacks the latest in passenger comforts. And American has only a handful of replacement planes coming in the next couple of years.
The fleet of big jets operated by nine major domestic airlines has aged steadily since 2002, according to Airline Monitor, an aviation research firm. The average age was 10.6 years at the end of 2002, and it has risen each year, hitting 12.2 years at the end of 2006. Domestic airlines largely stopped ordering new planes after Sept. 11, 2001, shrinking their fleets to adjust to a drop in demand. Travel has rebounded strongly, but airlines are, for the most part, years away from taking delivery on large numbers of new planes. A big reason is that Boeing and Airbus have committed most of their airliner production capacity in coming years to carriers outside the U.S.
Indeed, only 43 of the 710 Boeing 787s on order have been identified as going to domestic airlines; 25 to Continental Airlines and 18 to Northwest Airlines. And none of the 165 giant Airbus A380s on order is destined for U.S. carriers. In essence, a new generation of jetliners - bigger, more comfortable, more fuel efficient - is largely bypassing domestic airlines and their customers.
"The fleet is aging almost one-for-one with the calendar," said Roger King, an analyst at CreditSights who predicts that trend will continue for about five years.
Scott Carr, a technology executive in Tulsa, Okla., said when he flies on one of Northwest's DC-9s, "I feel like I'm in a tuna can."
"I've grown to know enough about the various kinds of airplanes," Carr said. "I try to avoid Northwest now whenever possible. If I'm flying Southwest, they're flying newer planes, and I can tell the difference."
Warren Miller, co-founder of Beckmill Research, a Lexington, Va., firm that appraises private businesses, said he braces himself for an old plane except when flying JetBlue Airways, which operates newer Airbus A320s. On other airlines, "The planes are just dirty. The upholstery is just not very comfy," he said.
He wishes regulators would allow foreign airlines into the United States to fly domestic routes, which would increase competition and bring some new planes into the market.
Airplane cleaning became something of a lost art during the industry's deep post-Sept. 11 swoon. Airlines are increasing the frequency of cleaning again but still have some catching up to do. And the oldest planes often have the most grime.
Carl Zwisler, a Bethesda, Md., lawyer, said he did not think about the age of the US Airways 757 he was flying earlier this month until visiting the lavatory.
"The bathroom looked old - dingy, dusty, not inviting," Zwisler said.
....there is more if you care to read it. Hey, basically it all sucks. Northwest has the oldest planes. Really OLD!!!
U.S. air carriers slow to replace their aging fleets
Click-2-Listen
By JEFF BAILEY
The New York Times
Sunday, November 11, 2007
It's not just flights that are getting delayed. U.S. airlines are also putting off purchases of new planes, meaning the nation's fleet of aircraft, on average, is aging right along with the passengers.
Northwest Airlines, for example, flies 109 of the oldest jetliners in the country, DC-9s, with an average age of 35 years. Northwest has yet to decide how to replace the DC-9s, which could remain in service another five years or more.
American Airlines operates a fleet of 300 older MD-80s, a model that guzzles fuel and lacks the latest in passenger comforts. And American has only a handful of replacement planes coming in the next couple of years.
The fleet of big jets operated by nine major domestic airlines has aged steadily since 2002, according to Airline Monitor, an aviation research firm. The average age was 10.6 years at the end of 2002, and it has risen each year, hitting 12.2 years at the end of 2006. Domestic airlines largely stopped ordering new planes after Sept. 11, 2001, shrinking their fleets to adjust to a drop in demand. Travel has rebounded strongly, but airlines are, for the most part, years away from taking delivery on large numbers of new planes. A big reason is that Boeing and Airbus have committed most of their airliner production capacity in coming years to carriers outside the U.S.
Indeed, only 43 of the 710 Boeing 787s on order have been identified as going to domestic airlines; 25 to Continental Airlines and 18 to Northwest Airlines. And none of the 165 giant Airbus A380s on order is destined for U.S. carriers. In essence, a new generation of jetliners - bigger, more comfortable, more fuel efficient - is largely bypassing domestic airlines and their customers.
"The fleet is aging almost one-for-one with the calendar," said Roger King, an analyst at CreditSights who predicts that trend will continue for about five years.
Scott Carr, a technology executive in Tulsa, Okla., said when he flies on one of Northwest's DC-9s, "I feel like I'm in a tuna can."
"I've grown to know enough about the various kinds of airplanes," Carr said. "I try to avoid Northwest now whenever possible. If I'm flying Southwest, they're flying newer planes, and I can tell the difference."
Warren Miller, co-founder of Beckmill Research, a Lexington, Va., firm that appraises private businesses, said he braces himself for an old plane except when flying JetBlue Airways, which operates newer Airbus A320s. On other airlines, "The planes are just dirty. The upholstery is just not very comfy," he said.
He wishes regulators would allow foreign airlines into the United States to fly domestic routes, which would increase competition and bring some new planes into the market.
Airplane cleaning became something of a lost art during the industry's deep post-Sept. 11 swoon. Airlines are increasing the frequency of cleaning again but still have some catching up to do. And the oldest planes often have the most grime.
Carl Zwisler, a Bethesda, Md., lawyer, said he did not think about the age of the US Airways 757 he was flying earlier this month until visiting the lavatory.
"The bathroom looked old - dingy, dusty, not inviting," Zwisler said.
....there is more if you care to read it. Hey, basically it all sucks. Northwest has the oldest planes. Really OLD!!!
North by Northwest
Veteran
I guess you missed this:
Northwest Airlines upgrades international fleet
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The Airbus A330 that Northwest Airlines flies overseas has all the latest features, but the airline's domestic fleet is one of the oldest among U.S. carriers.
Northwest is overhauling its international fleet with the A330 and, beginning in late 2008 or 2009, Boeing's new 787 "Dreamliner." In 2000 it was still flying 40 DC-10s, some of them built in the late 1960s, and 21 Boeing 747-200s. Those are all gone now.
The DC-10s were gas hogs, required three pilots to fly, and lacked modern features like in-seat video screens.
Today in the Sky: Continuing coverage of Northwest Airlines
The A330 is more fuel efficient, requires just two pilots, and even has crew bunks for the cabin crew for flights more than eight hours. Northwest showed off its 32nd A330 on Thursday, the final aircraft of an order that began deliveries in 2003.
"With this delivery we now have the youngest international fleet of any North American carrier," Northwest CEO Doug Steenland said on Thursday as he showed off the plane, which still had a new-plane smell and protective plastic runners down the aisles. Northwest said it now flies the world's largest A330 fleet.
Northwest, Michigan's largest passenger air carrier, is also planning to use the new 787 on international flights. Northwest and United Airlines have the largest Asian presence among U.S. carriers, and Steenland said Northwest will be flying twice as many aircraft on international routes by 2010 as it is now.
There's less to show off on its domestic fleet, though. While Northwest is quickly modernizing its regional service with new 76-seat jets, much of its mainline domestic flying is still done with DC-9's, which generally seat around 100 people. As of 2004 Northwest's 150 DC-9s averaged 34 years old.
Steenland said Northwest is looking into whether, and when, to replace them. He said he's watching to see if a manufacturer makes a new 100-seat aircraft made with the same light, sturdy carbon composites as the Boeing 787, which Northwest is buying. He said he expects to make a decision about a DC-9 replacement next year.
The DC-9 is a good fit for Northwest because of all the small markets it serves, but it's less fuel efficient than other airplanes.
Northwest was originally scheduled to get its first of 18 787s in August 2008, but Boeing announced earlier this month that deliveries would begin six months late.
Steenland said a six-month delay would not cause a major problem, as long as Boeing catches up soon after that. He said he expects to meet with Boeing officials soon to get an updated delivery schedule.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
AND YOU WILL BE SHOWING US THE LINK FOR UAL's YOUNGEST FLEET OF THE MAJORS, RIGHT? (Don't forget your 1985 737's)
What is that doing for your balance sheet? That is what YOU OUGHT to be worried about...it could spell the end of your retirement beenies.
"Northwest is overhauling its international fleet with the A330 and, beginning in late 2008 or 2009, Boeing's new 787 "Dreamliner." I hear the NEW owners of Ual might order some new Dreamliners...I'll let you know how they fly.
OLD domestic fleet= what kind of balance sheet?
And you spent how long in BK?
Basically it must REALLY suck to be in the street BEGGING to be bought cause your dumba$$ CEO built a business plan around $50 oil.
Northwest Airlines upgrades international fleet
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The Airbus A330 that Northwest Airlines flies overseas has all the latest features, but the airline's domestic fleet is one of the oldest among U.S. carriers.
Northwest is overhauling its international fleet with the A330 and, beginning in late 2008 or 2009, Boeing's new 787 "Dreamliner." In 2000 it was still flying 40 DC-10s, some of them built in the late 1960s, and 21 Boeing 747-200s. Those are all gone now.
The DC-10s were gas hogs, required three pilots to fly, and lacked modern features like in-seat video screens.
Today in the Sky: Continuing coverage of Northwest Airlines
The A330 is more fuel efficient, requires just two pilots, and even has crew bunks for the cabin crew for flights more than eight hours. Northwest showed off its 32nd A330 on Thursday, the final aircraft of an order that began deliveries in 2003.
"With this delivery we now have the youngest international fleet of any North American carrier," Northwest CEO Doug Steenland said on Thursday as he showed off the plane, which still had a new-plane smell and protective plastic runners down the aisles. Northwest said it now flies the world's largest A330 fleet.
Northwest, Michigan's largest passenger air carrier, is also planning to use the new 787 on international flights. Northwest and United Airlines have the largest Asian presence among U.S. carriers, and Steenland said Northwest will be flying twice as many aircraft on international routes by 2010 as it is now.
There's less to show off on its domestic fleet, though. While Northwest is quickly modernizing its regional service with new 76-seat jets, much of its mainline domestic flying is still done with DC-9's, which generally seat around 100 people. As of 2004 Northwest's 150 DC-9s averaged 34 years old.
Steenland said Northwest is looking into whether, and when, to replace them. He said he's watching to see if a manufacturer makes a new 100-seat aircraft made with the same light, sturdy carbon composites as the Boeing 787, which Northwest is buying. He said he expects to make a decision about a DC-9 replacement next year.
The DC-9 is a good fit for Northwest because of all the small markets it serves, but it's less fuel efficient than other airplanes.
Northwest was originally scheduled to get its first of 18 787s in August 2008, but Boeing announced earlier this month that deliveries would begin six months late.
Steenland said a six-month delay would not cause a major problem, as long as Boeing catches up soon after that. He said he expects to meet with Boeing officials soon to get an updated delivery schedule.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
AND YOU WILL BE SHOWING US THE LINK FOR UAL's YOUNGEST FLEET OF THE MAJORS, RIGHT? (Don't forget your 1985 737's)
What is that doing for your balance sheet? That is what YOU OUGHT to be worried about...it could spell the end of your retirement beenies.
"Northwest is overhauling its international fleet with the A330 and, beginning in late 2008 or 2009, Boeing's new 787 "Dreamliner." I hear the NEW owners of Ual might order some new Dreamliners...I'll let you know how they fly.
OLD domestic fleet= what kind of balance sheet?
And you spent how long in BK?
Basically it must REALLY suck to be in the street BEGGING to be bought cause your dumba$$ CEO built a business plan around $50 oil.
In the meantime, people fly around in 35 year old airplanes domestically. Right? 
:down:
Stock prices:
NWA $18.74
UAUA $43.50 (it's good to be superior)
How long in BK? I do believe that was 3 years.
Stop being so defensive! Someday you may get a new plane, right now your planes are OLD. Fact
:down:Stock prices:
NWA $18.74
UAUA $43.50 (it's good to be superior)
How long in BK? I do believe that was 3 years.
Stop being so defensive! Someday you may get a new plane, right now your planes are OLD. Fact
North by Northwest
Veteran
Yeah, they do. But at least they know that they will be flying (excellent balance sheet) and not end up stranded (back in bankruptcy because of a few middle aged planes when they couldn't afford them...just so they could bragg about a "new" plane.)
Frankly, I don't think they would notice the difference between our OLD 35 year old plane and your OLD 25 year old plane...except when they step on board a beautiful new "787 Dreamliner".
OUT with the OLD...and in with the NEW! (someday you may be able to fly one)
Little Grasshopper...oh... excuse me, FLY, your stock price means sh*t when your margins are in the toilet. (FACT) Or is that too big for you to understand. It is hard to make one "defensive" when one doesn't have to worry about debt. OLD DC-9s...bada$$es still churning out the cash.(hey, if they don't we park'em. Try it, it might keep ya out of BK for a 2ed round...that is, what's left.)
We have 32 new widebodies (with 18 Dreamliners arriving at gate 2008, w/options for 60 more...how many do you have? (see i can play little kid too)
Frankly, I don't think they would notice the difference between our OLD 35 year old plane and your OLD 25 year old plane...except when they step on board a beautiful new "787 Dreamliner".
OUT with the OLD...and in with the NEW! (someday you may be able to fly one)
Little Grasshopper...oh... excuse me, FLY, your stock price means sh*t when your margins are in the toilet. (FACT) Or is that too big for you to understand. It is hard to make one "defensive" when one doesn't have to worry about debt. OLD DC-9s...bada$$es still churning out the cash.(hey, if they don't we park'em. Try it, it might keep ya out of BK for a 2ed round...that is, what's left.)
We have 32 new widebodies (with 18 Dreamliners arriving at gate 2008, w/options for 60 more...how many do you have? (see i can play little kid too)
You are pretty hung up on that "dreamliner". Good luck with that. :blink: (sounds like Napolean syndrome)
Those DC9's must be chugging up a lot of fuel too...so much for making $$$. I wasn't so worried about you parking them though, it was more about you nose diving them.
Try to keep ole NW out of BK 2 and I'm sure that UAL will do the same. Ciao
Those DC9's must be chugging up a lot of fuel too...so much for making $$$. I wasn't so worried about you parking them though, it was more about you nose diving them.
Try to keep ole NW out of BK 2 and I'm sure that UAL will do the same. Ciao
U
UAL_TECH
Guest
Flew on a 'start-up' recently, and the waitresses announced that 'gratuities' are appreciated.
Tested the waters and indeed they accepted tips and gave me better service for it.
Of course they were all cute 21-25 and eager ‘beavers’…
Keep beating yourselves up with ‘who is the best’ while you are overtaken by the NextGen…
JMHO,
B) UT
Tested the waters and indeed they accepted tips and gave me better service for it.
Of course they were all cute 21-25 and eager ‘beavers’…
Keep beating yourselves up with ‘who is the best’ while you are overtaken by the NextGen…
JMHO,
B) UT
North by Northwest
Veteran
We were having an adult conversation until little kids jumped in with:
"United has the youngest fleet of the majors. Northwest the oldest. (35 years average! shock.gif )"
It says so much more than what is written.
Tips uh? Gotta pay the rent some how!
"United has the youngest fleet of the majors. Northwest the oldest. (35 years average! shock.gif )"
It says so much more than what is written.
Tips uh? Gotta pay the rent some how!
spacewaitress
Senior
- Aug 27, 2002
- 468
- 0
And age of the fleet doesn't take into account the fact that UAs airplanes are falling apart. At least that was my experience (as a flight attendant)...maybe things have changed. But maintenance was routinely deferred and passengers dis-serviced as a result. Seems to me there has to be a balance between age and maintenance.
So you are saying having an old fleet prevents an airline from going into BK?
Wasn't NW just in BK?
North by Northwest
Veteran
I am saying two airlines, bankrupt, one with an owned old fleet/and best margins/cash going forward vs. one with middle aged fleet and struggling margins that may send it back into bankruptcy with oil at $95 (built on $50 business plan)
None of which had ANYTHING to do with the thread.
None of which had ANYTHING to do with the thread.
Art at ISP
Veteran
whatkindoffreshhell
Veteran
Did you happen to catch this article???
United seeks new plane for U.S. flights
I guess your theory of UA not wanting to "dirty the balance sheet" is kinda shot to he11 considering they approached Boeing and Airbus to build them a new plane!
As you can see, the oldest planes in the fleet are the 737's at 18 years old. We still have the largest fleet of 747's and 777's. So the need to replace the long haul aircraft is just not there yet.
I'm also sure you saw that UA is adding service to London from Denver, right? So with measured international expansion and a plan to start replacing the aging fleet, doesn't seem to me that UA is without a long term strategy.
Good Lord man -- that's the best you've got?? How delusional are you?
A silly public remark by a beancounter who presided over a bankruptcy filing 'announcing' they are asking for something eight years from now??
Tell me again -- how much cash did UA put on the table here to improve their product?
How come the UA spinmeister didn't use the standard, smug, safe "we don't comment on future business plans" public statement that smart businesspeople always say with a wry smile?
You deserve your fate.
NewHampshire Black Bears
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 10,154
- 681
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ART,
Something tells me, that you've "found a new home" A GOOD CHOICE I might add.
With Everything LCC has put you through, I DON'T BLAME YOU.
How close am I to this scenario ?
Perhaps a very early morning "jaunt", on the LIRR(express to NYP), with a quick track change to Amtrak, or NJT to EWR ??
