Canadian Helicopter Pilots Association

[412driver]

"Welcome aboard Grover! You are the type of person we are looking for. You liked what you were reading, logged on and posted interest in this association. Now if only more people like you would come forward. Please PM me if you want to kick it up a notch."


gee, look at grover. how convenient that a "newbie" poster who just happened to have signed up just the other day.................... <_<

i say someone has created a Profile to back his/her opinion............. :down:


so what do we have now? about 50 pilots in the survey? out of about 3000+ in canada?

hehehe just love playing the bad guy......... 😀 😀 😀 😀

 

[bubbleboy]

I don't think the "yes" vote needs any help propping up it's numbers but maybe some of the "no" guys could get together and make up some votes. 😀

She's happening batman, better run back to the bat cave!

 

[Albert Ross]

I think the greatest value of an "association" would be the knowledge that you are supported with regard to decisions that might be unpoular (like refusing to take off if passengers don't wear shoulder straps in the front seat), or at least other people think the same way as you do.

Considering that some companies have recently had machines sitting on the ground because there were no pilots to fly them (and many companies were committing pilots early this year), it seems to me that it will shortly be our turn anyway - unscrupulous employers watch out!

I think that whatever is formed should have a safety committee that lays down a code of conduct that all people who aspire to call themselves professional should stick to. That is, no carrying passengers on the end of a long line, no flying Astars with only one door off on one side, no overtorquing to get loads off the ground, etc. There's too much of that stuff still around and it should stop.

Phil

 

[Over-Talk]

Albert, I fully agree with your ideas, but we have a problem.
The threee breaches of "conduct" that you just stated are all violations of the Canadian Air Regulations, but how often have you heard of pilots being violated for these offences ??

If this Association is to be "professional" in it's name and nature it must have safety, and obeying the CARs, as grounds for membership not just a sub-committee.
Any conduct of a member that the membership and/or safety committee finds to be unsuitable for a Professional Pilot's Association should be grounds for expelling that member from the Association.
A confidential reporting system for reporting misconduct should be available.

The former-member will still be a licenced pilot and can continue as such until the MoT decides otherwise. There should be no reason for the information that the Association acted on to be passed on to the MoT, unless forced to do so by law.

If this all sounds all to fascistic to you, then what are we doing here ????
The 'bar' is already raised in terms of 'professional' standards in Canada, i.e. the CARs.
Someone has to start pointing out which pilots are clearing the 'bar', and which ones aren't, thereby leaving the others with a bad name as well.

What do you think guys ????????

P.S. The shoulder strap debate has been going on for awhile. The CARs have a grey area as to whether the shoulder straps form part of the compulsory 'seat-belt'. Attempts to clarify this Regulation are apparently underway, but I'm not sure what stage they are at.
Also, very few 204/205/212 pilots wear their shoulder straps when long-lining from the left seat, however most of these guys are fine examples of the term 'professional'.
Who knows, maybe a new Regulation, and an Association with a solid membership will finally mean someone has to design and install a shoulder strap system that works for long-lining. The present system was not designed for hanging out the left-bubble and is not suitable.

 

[Albert Ross]

But that's just my point - the rules are there, but people just ignore them anyway(leaving aside the fact that noone seems to enforce them) - which is the thrust of my next article in Vertical. It's only peer pressure that is going to change this, which is where I see an association's function.

As far as shoulder straps go - I will say it all over again - CARs does not specifically state that shoulder straps will be worn in the front seat, but it does say that they will be supplied in helicopters made after a certain date (forget which right now). However, the definition of a seat belt in CARs includes mention of a shoulder strap, where fitted, so when CARs says seat belts will be done up, the shoulder strap is included. I would suggest that the smart lawyer acting on behalf of someone injured because they didn't have one on would take that view, just before he takes your house away. Transport certainly do.

Most ops manuals say they should be done up, and ICAO Annex 2 says that your word is law, so if you say they must, they have no argument.

And just in case anyone is thinking of flying with only one door off on one side of an AStar - the limitations section of the flight manual bans it, therefore your **Cof A is invalid** if you do, as is any insurance automatically, and having no insurance is grounds in most mortgages for repossession.


Phil

 

[Blackmac]

Hopefully we can have a get together in TO the 24 October 2003 after the Ontario AME Worshop.

Both Grover and 412 are cordially invited as is EVERYBODY ELSE.

Cheers, Don McDougall

 

[Butch Grafton]

New Orleans, LA - Helicopter pilots from around the world completed six days of meetings at two organizational events with a promise to continue the global alliances which have been recently formed, and now strengthened, by these meetings.

The Professional Helicopter Pilots Association, based in New Orleans, concluded its first pilots convention on Sunday. The convention, which was attended by helicopter pilots from a number of nations, was declared a tremendous success.

Eurocopter's representative, Mr. Jim Kettles, brought a EC130 to the convention and made an excellent presentation to the attendees about their company and their aircraft. Eurocopter also sponsored an elegant luncheon for all attendees.

Bell Helicopters representative, Mr. John Justin, briefed the pilots on the BA-609 Tiltrotor and the AB-139.

Sikorsky's representative, Mr. Dave Stepenek, gave presentations on the S76-C and the S-92.

Chris Trimer of the Air and Marine Division of the Department of Homeland Defense (formerly U.S. Customs) Gave a presentation on their new role in the security of the nation and how it will affect commercial aviation. Mr. Trimmers discussion with the pilots after his presentation was well received.
LCDR Biff Brown of the U.S Coast Guard also gave an enlightening presentation on their operations in the Gulf of Mexico which generated a great deal of discussion among the offshore pilots who work that area.

Mary Donahue of the FAA held a discussion on Accident Avoidance/Aeronautical Decision Making which was well received and generated a lot of discussion among the attendees.

There also were two excellent discussion groups which focused on resolving many of the problems we see today in EMS and Off Shore operations. The Gulf of Mexico problems were discussed in great detail and PHPA, in an alliance with the IFALPA Helicopter Committee, looks forward to helping resolve many of the issues in the Gulf of Mexico which create unsafe operations for many of its members.

Attending PHPA members were delighted with the wide range of expertise and the multi-national mix of pilots attending this first convention. Countries represented were Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, Sweden, Norway, Spain, Iceland, the UK, and the US.

For further information contact Butch Grafton 334-790-4417 or the PHPA office at 504-779-5201

(below) Rene de Jong, Chairman of the IFALPA Helicopter Committee and President of the pilots union at NORSK Helicopters explains the IFALPA Helicopter committee's role in international affairs and how PHPA and the IFALPA Hel/Com are working together.

 

[grover]

sorry 412driver... I registered and logged on to add my humble voice to this topic. .. Not, as you seem to think as a numbers plant... I like what I see happening in the US with the PHPA and think that such an organization in Canada would promote our interests for the betterment of all. (maybe I'm too idealistic)

 

[Winnie]

My fellow Pilots:
I have been cautious to voice my opinion, since I'm in Canada only temporarily. I think maybe you should take a close look at the few Pilot-unions over in scandinavia, particularily in Norway. They are an integral part of the company, and they all work for the betterment of the company, which in term means better conditions for the ones working the company.
I vote yes for an association, and hope you accept the support. We need to get organized, but we don't need a "union-war" like they had in the states, it should be cordial, but also, it should get the point across, we want our vages to increase in order of the inflation, not to be left where it was 10 or 20 years ago. In the instructor business one sees this very clearly, the vages don't rise much over the years, but you still have to pay of loans, rent, bills, travel (if needed), car, and so on
Well thumbs up and keep on working!

 

[donnybrook]

I have tried to find this answer in the previous posts but couldn't. So my apologies in advance if I missed it...Would this association be of benefit to low time guys? I can see how the overall industry wage issue would be improved, but if companies are not motivated to play by the association rules and they hire guys who work for low pay anyway, the low time members of the association will have a tougher time finding "hour building" jobs, regardless of pay. My main thought is on how to get companies on board with this idea...

 

[Albert Ross]

I would only be interested in an association that did its best for everybody

Phil

 

[Blackmac]

:boff: As stated on numerous occassions if we had the answer to everything we wouldn't need an assoc.

As I stated my opinion on a fire thread, I believe all medium helicopters should have dual controls with a low timer as co-jo, the same as stiff wing.

Again it doesn't take a high time pilot to water bucket on a fire, once checked out by the company.

The hiring and using low time pilots has to be a prerequist of any company using more than a couple of machines.

Insurance companies understand stats only, not high time or low time pilots. They must be educated by the helicopter owners and hopefully an assoc.

As stated before the rates for helicopters (all makes) is to low. What happened to the old adage that if a helicopter cost XXX $, the hourly rate was normally ten percent of that cost.

Experience in the industry from being an engineer, pilot, marketing and manager, plus working for the feds as a contract officer and having delt with most of the industry in that capacity, I truly beleive that you need an assoc. for the betterment of the whole industry.

What do I want from this, NOTHING.

I will be seventy years old next year and would like to see something accomplished before then.

Don McDougall

 

[412driver]

ok..........time to draw a line here......


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if someone promises cold refreshments then........................


oh, and ribs................


i'd vote yes for an ASSOCIATION but still NO to a union.


412driver

 

[cap]

Grover eh? That's an interesting name. I didn't know that there was more than one. Ya Bubbleboy, I think he'd have some good ideas. The one about Butch I could also 'buy into'.

 

[Blackbeard]

Let me point out one thing - Association and Union are not synonymous.

Because we start an Association of Canadian helicopter pilots it does not follow that this association is a union. In fact, it is not and never will be a union.
If there are to be unions formed in the Canadian helicopter industry (and I can think of several companies where they may be needed) then it must be done on a individual company basis and decided on by the crew working for that company at the time. There is always going to be a place in the industry in Canada for the smaller operators - I do not see these operators ever being forced into a union regardless of what happens to some of the larger companies.

Guys, please do not be afraid of an Association. The people who want to bring you an association are not trying to hoodwink you into a union. An association will benefit ALL Canadian helicopter pilots - both high and low time.

By following the threads posted on this forum it is easy to see the many and varied issues and questions that face the industry today. I especially note the recent points made about following the rules regarding seatbelts. Obviously the rule is poorly written and fails to take into account the many varied aspects of our industry. This is a perfect example of where the Association could step in and clarify this situation before the rule becames law.
As far as those people not following the rules, have any of you ever stopped to think that a lot of this is due to peer and company pressure. Companies don't care about the ruling on seatbelts as it is not their licence on the line in the event of an accident or prosecutiion. This is another area where an association could have positive input.

I see another post where someone is worried about the effect of an Association on low-time pilots. I believe that the Association can only have a positive effect in this area. If we can tidy up the whole issue of hiring low-time crew ( I like some of Blackmac's ideas here) then all low-timers will benefit. One thing I would like to see come to an end is the idea that low-time pilots wanting to get into the industry should work for appallingly low wages - or even nothing. I have seen this for years and have always detested the practice. If a pilot is worht hiring then he is worth paying properly.

Let's face it, right now companies manipulate wages because it is about the only thing left that they can alter. When it comes to the other costs of the business like fuel, insurance and spares, then they accept the going rate and build it into their costs. The same thing should go for wages.

While I am on this rant, I may as well state that I am also tired of poorly managed companies expecting the crews to pay the price for this bad management. Too often, I seen managers' come to the crews asking for concessions, and telling the crews that 'We have a problem'. As if this problem is of the crews making. To this I say it is the company that has the problem, because in most cases the pilots and engineers can put on a different hat when the next comany comes in and takes over.

Enough on all that.

Guys, please support this Association as it is the best chance we have for the future, both to improve this industry and to be recognised as a group of professionals.