Clue Me In

[swagalleyhag]

Sorry to intrude on your discussions. I don't know the internal politics w/the TWU vs. AMFA fight, but I am a member of TWU 556 (Southwest Flight Attendants), so I do know a little bit about TWU. I want to understand what lead up to the decert drive?

What I am not understanding, and perhaps somebody here can clue me in, is why do you feel a change in representation is necessary? Here's what I mean... I hear a lot of talk about Jim Little and Sonny Hall, but don't really understand what they directly have to do with your Local. At TWU 556, we just underwent major contract negotiations. We hired our own attorney, our own economist, etc. I don't think International was too happy with some of the things we did during our negotiations - they're old school, and we definitely did things differently - but they didn't interfere in a negative way, and although our Local is very well off financially, they still gave us a great deal of financial support, and we came out with a kick a$$ contract.

I do understand that once people started signing cards Little and Hall got involved, but what lead up to the card signing? What did TWU as a whole do prior to that? Or were you just unhappy with your Local's leadership?

When things have been bad in the past with our Local, we simply elected new leadership, and kept it in house. Without a change in the mindset of those who become your Local's leaders, it won't matter the initials in your Union's title... it'll be the same old thing.

This is a serious question, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just want to try to see where you're coming from.

 

[Bob Owens]

swagalleyhag,Sep 10 2004, 05:23 PM]
Sorry to intrude on your discussions.

Intrude? Not at all this is a public forum.

I don't know the internal politics w/the TWU vs. AMFA fight, but I am a member of TWU 556 (Southwest Flight Attendants), so I do know a little bit about TWU. I want to understand what lead up to the decert drive?

Many factors. But before we go on let me explain that your situtation with the TWU is completely different than ours. All of the members of your contract are in one Local, and your Local has control over your contract. THat is not the case with us, with us 22 Locals are under one contract and none of those locals are party to the contract, instead the International is party to the contract. During the 2003 "negotiations" Local reps only met face to face at the table around five times (over an 18 month period). The "negotiations committee" did not negotiate with the company but with each other. While you have control over those who have control over your contract, the Local, we do not. That is very important because in your case if your contract turns out to be a dog you can vote out those who negotiated it, we cant because the International negotiates our contracts, despite what they claim. All you have to do is look at the decision of the Local 501 lawsuit(it was on their website) and the Local 562 injunction decision. In both cases the courts determined that the contract belongs to the International, not the locals. Other court decisions have ruled that the Presidents council has no authority-I mention this because the TWU International lies to its AA members by claiming that all decisions of the International have to be approved first by the Presidents council.

What I am not understanding, and perhaps somebody here can clue me in, is why do you feel a change in representation is necessary?

We need to change representation because we can not change it from within since those that control our contract are not elected by the members.

I remember meeting several of your representatives at different conventions. I felt that they were fine union people. They, along with Local 100 and 562 pushed for democratic reform at the 2001 Convention. It was squashed by the International. However since your Local has not been prone to as much interference from the International as those of us under the AA contract and Local 100 they probably were not as upset as we were at how the International squashed democratic reform.

Unfortunately your Local has ended up siding with the International. At the last COPE Convention I spoke to several of your reps about bringing electronic voting to the next Convention so the members could see who voted how on all the issues. They favored it but after hearing what they had top say about Local 100 I knew that they would not ruffle the International too much. They said that Local 100 was run by Communists.


Here's what I mean... I hear a lot of talk about Jim Little and Sonny Hall, but don't really understand what they directly have to do with your Local.

They have complete control over the Local, read the TWU Constitution. They removed our President because he would not sign and present a letter to his members that Jim Little wrote. They removed me froim office because I criticized the TWU Internationals handling of the contract and called for Jim Littles removal.

At TWU 556, we just underwent major contract negotiations. We hired our own attorney, our own economist, etc. I don't think International was too happy with some of the things we did during our negotiations - they're old school, and we definitely did things differently - but they didn't interfere in a negative way, and although our Local is very well off financially, they still gave us a great deal of financial support, and we came out with a kick a$$ contract.

The International is not "old school", as far as unionism is concerned. Old school was cracking heads and striking, these guys are all about pure rhetoric and submission to the company. Again, with us the International has complete control over our contract. Congratulations on your contract, I guyess that you are not too familiar with ours.

I do understand that once people started signing cards Little and Hall got involved, but what lead up to the card signing? What did TWU as a whole do prior to that? Or were you just unhappy with your Local's leadership?

The problem is not with the Locals because the Locals are not party to the agreement, the International is.

When things have been bad in the past with our Local, we simply elected new leadership, and kept it in house. Without a change in the mindset of those who become your Local's leaders, it won't matter the initials in your Union's title... it'll be the same old thing.

Not really, just imagine if all you could do is elect your stewards but your Local E-Board was elected at a Convention where you really had no say. That is what we face.

This is a serious question, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just want to try to see where you're coming from.

I'm glad you asked. The fact is that I've stated before that one of the reasons why we must leave this union is because other Locals within the TWU dont have a clue as to what is going on here. You guys dont face the same problems that we do so you would be more likely to accept the Internationals excuses for stifling democracy. This became clear at the 2001 Convention.

With that said, have you ever considered asking the AA flight attendants why they left the TWU? Back then (1977) the TWU was promising them that if they stayed TWU that with their AFL-CIO influence they would get them FAA certified. Arent they still, nearly 30 years later claiming the same thing? Why arent all the Flight Attendants trying to organize themselves into one union? It makes sense.

 

[Checking it Out]

Bob, I was at the convention and what you are claiming did not happen!

Bob, during negotiations the president council negotiated the contract and the International had no voting power!

I believe you are in a different world.

The Amfa organizers want a mechanic's only group and are willing to sacrifice every other group in order to achieve this! They are made up of a cult mentality Me attitude!!! They have been brain washed and cannot see through the lies they have created. I can go to several different amfa organizers ask the same question and get a different answer every time. They are not afraid to lie to you!!! All you have to do is look back in July and see Amfa at United agreeing to farm work out of the country while holding rallies at NWA against it!!! They talk out of both sides of their mouths.

Note Bob, has been removed from office, his views are slanted! Violation of the oath of office!!

 

[Decision 2004]

Maybe the Southwest Flight Attendant should speak with AA Flight Attendants.

In the 1970's the Flight Attendants of American Airlines left the TWU representation and joined the APFA.

I think the F/A's of AA left for the TWU for the same reasons the Mechanics at AA will soon be leaving.

In fact, the campaign material of both the TWU and the APFA from that era that I have, appear exactly the same as today's AMFA vs TWU Material.

One simple answer as a reason for leaving is in these documents:

Simply stated, this movement is about removing ourselves from the control of Dicatorship style of Industrial Unionism, and empowering the membership.

This is about majority rule, and where does your craft or class fall within that majority rule of the Union Structure. This is not just about your Local and the Negotiations. This is about regaining the pride and forward advancement of Organized Labor as a whole, instead of pretending to have a union under the umbrella of the weak and worthless AFL-CIO.

 

[Decision 2004]

The Concept of “Craft or Classâ€￾

This is Federal Legal concept “Craft or Classâ€￾

In accordance with the Railway Labor Act, the Federal Government has decided that certain work groups have a mutuality of interest at the bargaining table and in advancing worker related issues, and that groups outside of that particular craft or class should have no participation in how the union is run or at least in the initial decision as to who represents that work group. And so Pilots vote with Pilots, and Flight Attendants as matter of law are prohibited from voting with the Pilots. And in turn, the Pilots are prohibited by law from voting with the Flight Attendants because they are considered to be in different Craft or Classes by the National Mediation Board. And Mechanic and Related Workers within the Airline Industry are entitled by law to vote just amongst themselves.

Supporters of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) believe that it comprises our mission to remain associated within a union structure with other crafts or classes that according to Federal Government do NOT share our mutuality of interest. The mission is further compromised when we remain associated with other crafts or classes within the union structure of “majority ruleâ€￾ and our particular craft or class is the minority in size. The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) is the only union in this current debate at American Airlines that says “We will forbid ourselvesâ€￾, it will be unconstitutional for us to go and represent baggage handlers, flight attendants, or passenger service clerks, and we will not let ourselves do that because this would compromise our mission. We wish the baggage handlers and other crafts or classes on the property the very best, but they cannot pick our pockets, we wish them to get the very best on their own, but they should no longer be allowed to ride on our backs. In other words, it is time for the airline industry to decouple the mechanic vs. baggage handler pay and benefit structure. It is suffice to say that since deregulation of the airline industry which since enactment has created enormous competition and pressure on airline ticket pricing, and that has resulted in the craft or class of mechanic and related workers suffering in economic buying power, and especially when compared to the Pilots and Flight Attendants who at American belong to craft specific unions. In the mid 1970’s, the Flight Attendants of American Airlines were also represented by the Transport Workers Union of American (TWU), and just as the mechanics today seek a change to a craft specific union, they also left the TWU in favor of the independent Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA) The craft or class of Mechanic and Related at American Airlines can no longer afford to remain in an organization that advocates a linking of different work groups that according to law do not share a mutuality of interest.

Regardless of good or bad economic times, and regardless of whether the union is negotiating concessions to prevent a bankruptcy filing or negotiating from economic growth with corporate profits, the formula by which the economic pie is divided amongst the union membership is a union decision. The recent concession are a clear case in point, because American Airlines was demanding $620 Million in concessions from the TWU, but how those give backs were divided up was a union decision, not a company decision. And the facts are clear, that the craft or class of Mechanic and Related at American took more than our fair share of that amount, and it is also clear this was a union decision.

AMFA IS THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR SKILLED TECHNICIANS

 

[Decision 2004]

GalleyHag,

Call Pat Gibbs and Susan French Law Offices and ask them more about why the AA Flight Attendants left the TWU for independent union represnetation.

Pat and Susan led the organizing effort against the TWU in favor of the APFA.

I do not have a phone number but this will get you there:

Gibbs and French Law Office
504 Oak Street Suite 4
Roanoke, Tx 76262

These fine ladies still love to talk about the dumping of the TWU, and they are clear, ridding the F/A group of AA from the bondage of Industrial Unionism was not a mistake, and they would do again tommorrow if needed.

Industrial Unionism is a valid form of of unionization, and the debate between craft unionist and industrial unionist dates back to the 1800's.

The merger of the AFL and the CIO is really what caused majority rule union strucutre issues to fail the craft/skilled worker.

Since that merger, union membership has declined to near non-existence, and of the small existence, the leftover group is made up of mostly State and Federal Government Workers.

It is my belief that seperation by craft and class is not only a good idea for the Mechanic and Related workgroup of American Airlines, the further speration of other craft and classes will revigorate the National Organized Labor movement.

Let's face it. The current structure and philosophies of the AFL-CIO leadership is dooming the over all Labor Movement. And that is directly related to the majority rule power of Industrial Unionism within the AFL-CIO. Since the AFL-CIO merger, the craft unionist, the proud skilled worker, has never had any power, or serious influence on the direction of the Labor Movement.

Instead, the Industrial Unionist have controlled the dues, the interest, and the overall direction of the United States Labor Movement.

Just as the Industrial Unionist are failing the skilled technician at American Airlines, so too is the same failure leading the destruction of the Labor Movement as a whole.

There is proof in the time evident record of results of the AFL-CIO since the merger compared to the pre-merger days of Organized Labor.

I think it is time for the skilled worker to take back control of the Labor Movement as a whole, and the Union Representation at the bargaining table of the employer. Until this ambitious idea is taken serious and completed, the Labor Movement and Organized will continue the setbacks and failures of Industrial Union Dictators and Low Self Esteem Leaders.

THE TIME IS NOW TO REVOLT AGAINST THE AFL-CIO WEAK AND WORTHLESS LEADERSHIP. IT IS TIME FOR THE SKILLED TO TAKE BACK THE REIGNS OF THE OVERALL LABOR MOVEMENT. IT IS TIME TO REVERSE THE OVERALL FAILURE SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF INDUSTRIAL UNION PHILOSOPHIES.

WATCHING THE TWU PRETEND TO BE ABLE TO REVERSE THIS MOVEMENT USING SURVEYS AND SMOKE SCREENS IS LIKE WATCHING A RE-RUN OF A REALLY BAD MOVIE.

 

[Bob Owens]

Checking it Out,Sep 10 2004, 08:14 PM]
Bob, I was at the convention and what you are claiming did not happen!

Be specific, what did not happen? Remember I have a copy of the minutes. Are you saying that the SWA flight attendants did not put in a motion for membership recall of officers?Maybe you missed that? Maybe you were out gambling instead?

Bob, during negotiations the president council negotiated the contract and the International had no voting power!

Negotiated with who? Was the company in the room striking deals or did the council "negotiate" and vote amongst themselves, then give the proposal to Little or some other International stooge who then may have given it to the company unwitnessed by the council, and then wait for Little to deliver the companys reply? Its not like the company was not available since they did all this on company property! No voting power?! The International held the only vote that counted! For all the council knew Little may have never even presented the councils proposals to the company. He may have simply left the room and come back a few minutes later with an answer. If the council negotiated the contract then how come the courts have ruled that these people have NO jurisdiction over the contract, that the contract belongs to the International? How come that is what the International testified in court?

I believe you are in a different world.

Than you? Obviously!

The Amfa organizers want a mechanic's only group and are willing to sacrifice every other group in order to achieve this!

Do you mean like the TWU sacrificed all groups to serve their goal of getting more members?
They are made up of a cult mentality Me attitude!!! They have been brain washed and cannot see through the lies they have created. I can go to several different amfa organizers ask the same question and get a different answer every time. They are not afraid to lie to you!!! All you have to do is look back in July and see Amfa at United agreeing to farm work out of the country while holding rallies at NWA against it!!! They talk out of both sides of their mouths.

Keep talking CIO. The more you talk the easier it is to see right through you.

Note Bob, has been removed from office, his views are slanted! Violation of the oath of office!!


Thats right, and I will now quote from the TWU Internationals decision citing that violation;

Brother Owens further admitted in hearing testimony that his primary duty was "not to the TWU International" but "primarily to the guys that elected me and put me in office and my duty's to them and whats written in the Constitution." [Tr.129]. On cross examination, he stated that,
"If the oath conflicts-if there's a conflict between the International and the members, I feel, as their representative, I have to fight for the members ' side."[Tr130]

These admissions constitute a repudiation of his oath of office, which requires allegience to the International ,,.

Your boys wrote this, not me. Its clear, as far as the International is concerned Local Officers are not servants to the members that elected them but to the unelected officers of the International. In the TWU members only have the ability, not even the right as Chuck and myself are proof of, to choose which one of their peers represents the International to them.

[post="178081"][/post]​

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

cio you wrote,
"All you have to do is look back in July and see Amfa at United agreeing to farm work out of the country while holding rallies at NWA against it!!! They talk out of both sides of their mouths."

This is another example of twu lies. Hey, coward, how about first talking about the twu allowing the farm out of overnight cabin cleaners? Or the twu's farm out of overhaul shops going from A&Ps to non-A&Ps? Or work that was done by AMTs that was farmed out to the ramp?

While you are at it, why don't you talk about the rallys against FAR 145 and the ones the twu held? Oh, that's right. The only rally the twu holds includes parading a coffin up and down a Tulsa street. You should know, you were there.

cio & the twu. Both fear democratic accountable craft unionism.

 

[Bob Owens]

SWa galley hag;

I would like to add one more point. Even though you are technically in an industrial union, you are set up more like a craft union. Only flight attendants are in your local right? Even though the TWU represents other workers at SWA they are in a seperate local with completely seperate agreements negotiated at different times than yours. Represetatives from those other locals have no input into your negotiations right? That is not the case with us. There is no local out there with just mechanics. Instead there are all sorts of combinations. This means that we may have a fleet service clerk negotiating for mechanics from RDU or a mechanic negotiating for a fleet service clerk from Detriot. All this confusion helps the International solidify its power over the whole process.

In order for you to understand what we go through the first thing that you would have to do is give up your autonomy and merge with other workgroups (Fleet Service, Res etc) then break up the local into regional locals not by type of workers but by whatever means the International dictates, then let them all negotiate your contracts at the same time at the same place and allow the International to have control over the whole process.

 

[Decision 2004]

They have been brain washed and cannot see through the lies they have created. I can go to several different amfa organizers ask the same question and get a different answer every time. They are not afraid to lie to you!!! All you have to do is look back in July and see Amfa at United agreeing to farm work out of the country while holding rallies at NWA against it!!! They talk out of both sides of their mouths.

[post="178081"][/post]​

Kevin,

Speaking of telling lies. You claim that AMFA agreed to farmout work, yet you are in complete denial and telling lies regarding the change in scope language.

The Overhaul Maintenance was removed from the 20% Outsource Limit at United Airlines by the IAM - NOT AMFA.

Why do you continue this LIE when it has been proven time and time again that the IAM's scorched earth negotiating policy allowed the heavy overhaul limit to be lifted?

I will show the true definition of Union Leadership talking out both sides of their mouths. DOCUMENTED PROOF that is.

JIM LITTLE CLAIMING THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRES MEMBERSHIP RATIFICATION OF CHANGES OR AMENDMENTS TO THE LABOR AGREEMENT

MAY 1999:

TWU ATTORNEY LAURENCE GOLD CLAIMING THE TWU HAS A CONSISTENT INTERPRETATION THAT IS IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH THE JIM LITTLE CLAIMS

JULY 2003:

CIO, There you have it, documented proof that the TWU Leadership talks out both sides of their mouths.

On the other hand, all we have from you is un-named and non-specific claims.

You are the common liar, and you are the one who cannot see the forest for the trees. You are the one telling lies that we can back-up with documented proof. You are the one that is brainwashed and cannot see or hear the truth even when it is presented in documented format. You are also the one who recently claimed that NO TWU member is begging, while you draw two topped out incomes from AA plus TWU Union Officer Pay. You are disgusting and do not even have a grip on the reality of the membership needs because as long as you've got yours brother, then nobody else is suffering. Truth is TWU Member Divorce, Suicide, Perosonal Bankruptcy, and Mental Health problems are currently at all time highs. Who is responslible for that Kevin? It sure as hell is NOT AMFA.

There is plenty of proof that the IAM negotiated the lifting of the Overhaul Maintenance from the 20% Scope Limit, yet you still claim on this bulletin board and elsewhere that AMFA negotiated this language. We do however, appreciate your dis-honesty, and easliy proven falsehoods. For this reason, we will soon vote the TWU off the property. And it will be mostly because of disengenuous liars like yourself that we will succeed.

FEEL FREE TO EXPLAIN OR PROVE THE DOCUMENTS POSTED DO NOT CLEARLY SHOW TWU LEADERSHIP SPEAKS OUT BOTH SIDES OF THEIR MOUTHS.

MY QUESTION STILL REMAINS, "WHY DONT YOU HOLD YOUR CURRENT UNION TO THE SAME STANDARDS YOU WISH TO HOLD AMFA"?

 

[Decision 2004]

How about it Rhinehart and Troyer?Do you guys have anything to add?

 

[AMFAMAN]

An interesting quote from our twu fans favorite law firm, you know the one protecting you from the AMFA right now...

[/QUOTE]"If you understand that employers are subject to global pressures and have to keep profits up, it may well cause employees to say, 'You know, it's not in my interest to vote in a union,"' says Charles I. Cohen, a management-side labor attorney at Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP.

 

[Bob Owens]

An interesting quote from our twu fans favorite law firm, you know the one protecting you from the AMFA right now...

"If you understand that employers are subject to global pressures and have to keep profits up, it may well cause employees to say, 'You know, it's not in my interest to vote in a union,"' says Charles I. Cohen, a management-side labor attorney at Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP.

[post="178510"][/post]​

Well we know thats not the case with the TWU because they will do whatever it takes to keep profits up, even if it means sending all their members into bankruptcy! What do they care, they cant be voted out anyway!!!

 

[Decision 2004]

"WITHOUT FURTHER RATIFICATION"

 

[AMFAMAN]

"If you understand that employers are subject to global pressures and have to keep profits up, it may well cause employees to say, 'You know, it's not in my interest to vote in a union,"' says Charles I. Cohen, a management-side labor attorney at Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP.

[post="178510"][/post]​

MY read on this is, " if you pump your employees/members full of BS from both the company union and the company, it may well cause employees to say, You know, it's not in my interest to vote in a real union, no I should just take whatever crumbs they offer, drink the twu's kool-aid and be happy."


It is funny to see the twu cultist praising the companies legal team and the company in the past and here they are telling you that they are union busters.