Death Watch for ALPA

[nycbusdriver]

With the federal judge, in a decision yesterday, swiftly moving along the MidAtlantic-division pilots' lawsuit against ALPA, it is now a three-way race to see just what will put this miserable union out of its decades long misery.

The federal judge in the MDA lawsuit decided to skip the pre-motion hearing (which the MDA pilots requested) because the case against ALPA is so compelling.

All the while, the Vaughn group class-action suit brought by over 200 pilots against ALPA and Retirement Systems of Alabama continues to wind its way through another federal courtroom with RICO charges attached (triple damages may apply.) This suit has been moving along now for almost four years, which is typical progress for the federal courts.

Either of these two lawsuits has the potential to bankrupt ALPA, or require it to impose onerous special assessments on a membership to pay the damages. The membership, unlikely to happily comply, will probably seek other representation since ALPA has been ineffective in protecting what once were lucrative careers.


Finally, the east pilots' emerging attempt (US Airline Pilots Association) to vote in a new union, if successful, would likely have a domino effect in getting UAL (already has a movement in place (Pearl Group) to request an election for a new bargaining agent,) NWA, DAL, and CAL to drop ALPA also. Since a loss of the USAirways 6,000 pilots would then give the regional carriers control of ALPA, it is unlikely that the majors would hang around to see the regional pilots dictate policy to them.

Bye-bye, ALPA.

 

[Bud8EE]

I am ready for NWA to get out and stop Behncke from spinning in his grave and would cast my vote accordingly. There are many like Junebug or 767Jetz that don't hear the whistle blowing on the train that is coming down the tracks, or their own personal agenda deafens them, but failed or political national polices are about to begin the singing of the fat lady on the fate of ALPA.

 

[Bear96]

You East guys still in ALPA?

When's the vote already?

 

[Bud8EE]

You East guys still in ALPA?

When's the vote already?

Based on their website www.decertifyalpa.org it looks like they are going inhouse, and I am sure that required some ground work. Drafting a constitution, hiring the right legal firm, putting together the cards and mass mailings probably isn't an overnight proposition. My guess is if they are actually trying to create an organization that works and actually represents their membership, a little diligence will go a long way. It would offer a clear alternative to another national outfit like the Teamsters or TWU. Although that would probably be easier and quicker and still work in fighting the award, that would be the only benefit as they would likely get more of the same with another national that they are getting with ALPA representation.

 

[Bear96]

OK, understood, so when's the vote?

 

[Bud8EE]

OK, understood, so when's the vote?

Do they have representation cards out yet? If they do, they would probably wait until they had sufficient margins to the number required to account for disqualified cards before contacting the NMB anyway. If they are collecting them and don't yet have the required number, they probably ought to hold back as much info as possible to make ALPA twist in deciding what to do and if the nutless wonder(ALPA) doesn't make a decision next week and delays again, redouble the effort and work hard to make a call from the NMB to ALPA informing them their representation is being challenged before the EC meets again. If they could do that it would be a win, win. They would have the Nicalou award tossed and force ALPA to make they case why they still deserve 1.94% of their paychecks.

 

[hp_fa]

When does the griping begin about the startup costs that will be associated with both decertifying and starting up a brand new union? Don't forget all the legal costs and other costs that will be incurred with doing it.

 

[Bud8EE]

When does the griping begin about the startup costs that will be associated with both decertifying and starting up a brand new union? Don't forget all the legal costs and other costs that will be incurred with doing it.

Let's say their payment to ALPA is 20 million a year. They won't have any problem lining up a financial institution to loan them a couple of million dollars. That and something like a one time special assessment would have them well on their way.

 

[b737fo]

So does this new US Airline Pilots Association come with new leadership? I ask that because at the ALPA carriers I worked it seems the same small group of people are always being recycled in and out of the representation and leadership positions. Why do I think that after the novelty of the in house union has worn off that the same characters will be in charge? I also wonder when the next merger happens are we looking for the proverbial staple job if we are represented by the US Airline Pilots Association and we merge with a bigger carrier? I don't like past precedent in such a situation like the Reno and TWA mergers. These are all the potential problems I look at if this new US Airline Pilots Association gets shoved down my throat as USA320Pilot implies.

Vote b737fo for USAPA MEC president!!!!!

 

[Bud8EE]

So does this new US Airline Pilots Association come with new leadership? I ask that because at the ALPA carriers I worked it seems the same small group of people are always being recycled in and out of the representation and leadership positions. Why do I think that after the novelty of the in house union has worn off that the same characters will be in charge? I also wonder when the next merger happens are we looking for the proverbial staple job if we are represented by the US Airline Pilots Association and we merge with a bigger carrier? I don't like past precedent in such a situation like the Reno and TWA mergers. These are all the potential problems I look at if this new US Airline Pilots Association gets shoved down my throat as USA320Pilot implies.

Vote b737fo for USAPA MEC president!!!!!

If they are smart they will do away with the position of MEC chairman and vice chairman and do what the APA does and make them president and vice president and directly elected by the membership so the guys at the top are directly answerable to the group and not just the MEC and its politics.

As long as the contract had protections similar to the Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's there would be a negotiated and/or arbitrated seniority list. It would be between the two unions and not under the umbrella of a "national policy."

The TWA pilots had this protection and were convinced by ALPA lawyers and their MEC to sign it away lest the airline be liquidated. At the same time ALPA was in backroom talks to merge APA back into ALPA. Who was ALPA looking out for, the National entity or its TWA members? You can draw your own conclusion.

 

[flynomore]

So does this new US Airline Pilots Association come with new leadership? quote]
=====================================================

Scanning the list of current forum members-I see a lot of what I expect-folks like me that got stapled by St. Nick. More interesting though is a fair amount of what my seniority has always considered part of the golden crowd that has never felt any sting throughout our previous merger exercises and has no reason to care about the current award other than on principles. How many HP can we say that about? I really don't know.

None of this indicates who will jump up in any union. Politicians always do despite our best wishes.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Based on their website www.decertifyalpa.org it looks like they are going inhouse, and I am sure that required some ground work.

Correct on both counts.

Drafting a constitution,

Done

hiring the right legal firm,

Done

putting together the cards and mass mailings

Done (1st round of mailings)

probably isn't an overnight proposition.

Correct. It's been in the works for about 8 weeks.

It would offer a clear alternative to another national outfit like the Teamsters or TWU. Although that would probably be easier and quicker and still work in fighting the award, that would be the only benefit as they would likely get more of the same with another national that they are getting with ALPA representation.

Teamsters will not touch us as they have an agreement with ALPA to not cannibilize each others groups. Probably the same goes for TWU and other AFL-CIO affiliated unions. And you're correct in that a national union mostly benefits the national union infrastructure, and not us.

Do they have representation cards out yet? If they do, they would probably wait until they had sufficient margins to the number required to account for disqualified cards before contacting the NMB anyway. If they are collecting them and don't yet have the required number, they probably ought to hold back as much info as possible to make ALPA twist in deciding what to do and if the nutless wonder(ALPA) doesn't make a decision next week and delays again, redouble the effort and work hard to make a call from the NMB to ALPA informing them their representation is being challenged before the EC meets again. If they could do that it would be a win, win. They would have the Nicalou award tossed and force ALPA to make they case why they still deserve 1.94% of their paychecks.

The cards have been available for download USAPA for about 2 weeks. Additionally, they were mailed out to the east membership on July 5. I am not in any leadership position with USAPA, but many of us involved in the grass roots end of things have printed out dozens of cards and distributed them at work. So far, all my attempts to hand them out have been met with great welcome. No one has refused or indicated any interest in staying with ALPA. There will be no public disclosure of a running tally. When USAPA has determined that they have a reasonably challenge-proof number (with a numerically comfortable pad) of correctly executed ballots, the NMB will get them for their examination.

 

[Mike]

When does the griping begin about the startup costs that will be associated with both decertifying and starting up a brand new union? Don't forget all the legal costs and other costs that will be incurred with doing it.

The USAirways Pilots have been paying 12 million a year to this poor excuse of a union for 15 years. We can get alot more for less with a union that serves USAirways pilots... not a union that serves many masters!

 

[nycbusdriver]

When does the griping begin about the startup costs that will be associated with both decertifying and starting up a brand new union? Don't forget all the legal costs and other costs that will be incurred with doing it.

This has all been taken into account. Many pilots have ponied up startup money already, and donations keep arriving daily as more and more pilots discover USAPA and their website:Here Additionally, the leadership has discovered that there are many top-notch labor law firms that are happy to advise us in hopes that they can win our business if USAPA becomes the bargaining agent. Almost without exception, the independent pilot unions from the other carriers have been jumping all over themselves with as much help as they can provide...gratis.

Let's say their payment to ALPA is 20 million a year. They won't have any problem lining up a financial institution to loan them a couple of million dollars. That and something like a one time special assessment would have them well on their way.

You are correct, Bud8EE. If USAPA can pull off getting the NMB to hold an election, financing the up front costs will be no problem as any bank would be happy to loan the organization some seed money. If successful, the DAY that USAPA wins, the dues get diverted (by law) into the USAPA accounts.

So does this new US Airline Pilots Association come with new leadership? I ask that because at the ALPA carriers I worked it seems the same small group of people are always being recycled in and out of the representation and leadership positions. Why do I think that after the novelty of the in house union has worn off that the same characters will be in charge?

The whole system of governance will change with an in-house union. Members will no longer be effectively voiceless once they elect their local LEC reps (as is the case now with ALPA.) The entire structure of ALPA is set up to keep those in charge in their offices. This is easily remedied with a different constitution, by-laws and policies. And if the same ne'er-do-wells end up in power again, it's because the membership (like you, b737fo, and me) elected them.

And why not: "b737fo" for USAPA president? Let's hear your platform.

 

[nostradamus]

Two airlines that are not in Alpa happen to be the most successful for the company and pilots. Southwest Airlines

American Airlines