Dec 2012/Jan 2013 IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[freedom]

Yes, I imagine it would mess with the minds of people who are so emotionally confounded by arbitrarily large numbers they can't put them in perspective to the larger situation.

To this day , I still remember something that was said on here to me from some person ...I will try to relay it as best I can ...

Companies rise and fall , they close up shop tossing all of the workers out into the street ...and there hasn't been an airline yet that hasn't gone into BK ( except southwest I guess ) and not cut the wages of it's workers .... At United they got their wages cut , at US air we got our wages cut , airline after airline IAM workers getting their pay slashed .......

but do you think their elected Union officials are taking pay cuts with them ?

NOPE ...........

(that has always gnawed on me for years )

 

[ChockJockey]

To this day , I still remember something that was said on here to me from some person ...I will try to relay it as best I can ...

Companies rise and fall , they close up shop tossing all of the workers out into the street ...and there hasn't been an airline yet that hasn't gone into BK ( except southwest I guess ) and not cut the wages of it's workers .... At United they got their wages cut , at US air we got our wages cut , airline after airline IAM workers getting their pay slashed .......

but do you think their elected Union officials are taking pay cuts with them ?

NOPE ...........

(that has always gnawed on me for years )

So what? The degree to which something gnaws on you does not directly correlate to its importance to the real world or the work group as a whole.

Frankly I'm amazed you aren't at this moment insisting on contract language that requires all fleet employees be native-born U.S. citizens.

 

[ograc]

Not fair or accurate to indict the entire union for the actions of a handful of thugs. OTOH, there were times and places in this country where the rights of working people were secured only after bloodshed. There are today those who have put themselves so much in the favor of one union or another that they see organizing contests as threats to their livelihood. Some seem to equate being a good unionist to having a slavish loyalty to one union or another, we will have to expect and be wary of these people.

One thing is certain... in the event of a merger accountability will be at hand for both the IAM and TWU. It's important to keep in mind both unions have been tasked with representing their members through the demonic bankruptcy process. Additionally, both are established labor organizations in the industry. Both have shortcomings and niether is perfect. The combined membership must decide who they believe will best represent our interests. It is critical, however, throughout this potential election campaign, we do not allow the process to divide the combined workforce. For our own sake, whichever union wins representation rights, they will need solidarity from the combined masses going forward. Not lecturing JFK... just my opinion.

 

[freedom]

So what? The degree to which something gnaws on you does not directly correlate to its importance to the real world or the work group as a whole.

Frankly I'm amazed you aren't at this moment insisting on contract language that requires all fleet employees be native-born U.S. citizens.

if your trying to bring up the fact that I am an outspoken opponent of illegal immigration and that I think MORE low wage immigration is a bad thing for this country and it's blue collar workers , then yes I do feel that way .

however I do resent your tone that implies I don't like people from other countries .. we have many people on the PHX ramp who come from different countries and backgrounds and I like them a lot...

honestly thou , I don't feel like going into politics , i'd much rather stay focused on our "Union" issues , let's not get side tracked .

 

[freedom]

One thing is certain... in the event of a merger accountability will be at hand for both the IAM and TWU. It's important to keep in mind both unions have been tasked with representing their members through the demonic bankruptcy process. Additionally, both are established labor organizations in the industry. Both have shortcomings and niether is perfect. The combined membership must decide who they believe will best represent our interests. It is critical, however, throughout this potential election campaign, we do not allow the process to divide the combined workforce. For our own sake, whichever union wins representation rights, they will need solidarity from the combined masses going forward. Not lecturing JFK... just my opinion.

There shouldn't even BE an election ......When I was TWU , we were GIVEN over to the IAM , there was no election then ......Do you know why we were handed over ? To prevent an needless election that could have jeopardized our union status if we failed to get 50% +1 ..... Not to even mention the fact that the IAM outnumbered us ...... for those who don't know , when you have a situation when a company like US air and AA merge , and your classification has two different unions IAM VS TWU , the RLA requires a repsenational vote , that vote requires that at LEAST 50% plus 1 of ALL the workers in that classification vote ( vote for or against which ever two unions are in the running ) ... if at least 50% plus one of the entire work force do NOT vote .... then both unions are Decertified and POOF , no more union for ANY of the workers for at least a year

I've been reading some of what 700 has been posting in different threads , i'm not sure , but maybe it's possible the 50% +1 rule has changed and that decertification of both groups doesn't happen anymore ... but I dunno ...

What I do know is that if the old rule DOES exist , the IAM members MUST be given over to the TWU .. ...

Remember brothers , sisters , if the old rule still exists those who will fight hardest on here for a representational election will be those who have the most to lose if the IAM goes away ( * cough cough 100K club )

 

[ChockJockey]

There shouldn't even BE an election ......When I was TWU , we were GIVEN over to the IAM , there was no election then ......Do you know why we were handed over ? To prevent an needless election that could have jeopardized out union status if we failed to get 50% +1 ..... Not to even mention the fact that the IAM outnumbered us ......

So you are saying that dues-paying members should not be allowed to have a choice in their own representation and instead should put everything in hands of the union leadership you keep insisting is over-compensated? Asinine. And how exactly does a union speak for me when it's deaf to my voice?

I've been reading some of what 700 has been posting in different threads , i'm not sure , but maybe it's possible the 50% +1 rule has changed and that decertification of both groups doesn't happen anymore ... but I dunno ...

Bad outcomes are the risks and costs associated with the the right to choose and participate in a democratic system. Any union winning an election is given a majority mandate. Simply dumping people into the lap of the TWU and expecting equal treatment is naive and idiotic.

What I do know is that if the old rule DOES exist , the IAM members MUST be given over to the TWU .. ...

Screw that.

Remember brothers , sisters , if the old rule still exists those who will fight hardest on here for a representational election will be those who have the most to lose if the IAM goes away ( * cough cough 100K club )

Pfft...okay bro. I've never received a check from the IAM, I've only ever paid dues and by virtue of that I'm going to insist on a representational election. Tell the AA folks that they don't deserve to have a say, I'm sure they enjoy the feeling of powerlessness. Don't you think they've been railroaded enough? Sounds like a perfect recipe for years of continuing bitterness and division.

 

[freedom]

Pfft...okay bro. I've never received a check from the IAM, I've only ever paid dues and by virtue of that I'm going to insist on a representational election. Tell the AA folks that they don't deserve to have a say, I'm sure they enjoy the feeling of powerlessness. Don't you think they've been railroaded enough? Sounds like a perfect recipe for years of continuing bitterness and division.

if you have your hopes set on an election I wouldn't get them set to high ... when we were TWU I remember us talking about fighting the IAM , but that didn't work very well , the HIGHER ups within the TWU closed up our Main union office here in PHX over night and they didn't even let our own TWU people into the building ......Then fast as you can say lickty spit we were given over to the IAM ...

In retrospect , it was the RIGHT thing to do ... If we had , had an election , both unions would most likely have been decertified ...

I can understand your respect for Democracy , but sometimes unilateral action must be taken .

If we skip a representational election we will shave MONTHS off of joint contract negoations ....

because brothers and sisters , what is the first thing the company will say to us after we combine ?

" that if we are going to negoatie , we need to do so with BOTH work groups as one combined entity "

and how do I know that is the first thing the company will say to us ? because that's exactly what they did to US , remember ?

 

[robbedagain]

freedom how many times has 700 and other stated we dont lose our pension what part of that DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND.. AS LONG AS YOUR INVESTED ITS NOT A LOSS..... IN THE EVENT OF A MERGER TWU GAVE UP COC TO GET THE 4.3 RAISE READ ON THE AA BOARDS SPEAK TO A NUMBER OF THEIR PEOPLE ASSUMING THEY HAVE ANY LEFT AFTER THE DISMANTLING THEIR MGMT N TWU GAVE THEM OTHER THAN THEIR HUBS MAY BE YOU SHOULD EXPERIMENT HOW IT WILL FEEL WHEN YOU LOSE YOUR JOB THEN GET RECALLED 3 YR LATER OR MAY BE YOU CAN WATCH YOUR FELLOW RAMPERS GET EJECTED FROM THE COMPANY IN TIME WHEN YOUR STATION GETS WHACKED FROM HUB TO A LARG STATION... THEN YOULL SEE WHERE WE ARE COMING FROM. AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED FROM MY CONVERSATIONS WITH SEVERAL EX AA FOLKS NOT JUST MY NEIGHBOR BUT OTHER PEOPLE I KNEW... THEY WOULD TAKE THE IAM OVER THE TWU ANY DAY

 

[ograc]

There shouldn't even BE an election ......When I was TWU , we were GIVEN over to the IAM , there was no election then ......Do you know why we were handed over ? To prevent an needless election that could have jeopardized our union status if we failed to get 50% +1 ..... Not to even mention the fact that the IAM outnumbered us ...... for those who don't know , when you have a situation when a company like US air and AA merge , and your classification has two different unions IAM VS TWU , the RLA requires a repsenational vote , that vote requires that at LEAST 50% plus 1 of ALL the workers in that classification vote ( vote for or against which ever two unions are in the running ) ... if at least 50% plus one of the entire work force do NOT vote .... then both unions are Decertified and POOF , no more union for ANY of the workers for at least a year

I've been reading some of what 700 has been posting in different threads , i'm not sure , but maybe it's possible the 50% +1 rule has changed and that decertification of both groups doesn't happen anymore ... but I dunno ...

What I do know is that if the old rule DOES exist , the IAM members MUST be given over to the TWU .. ...

Remember brothers , sisters , if the old rule still exists those who will fight hardest on here for a representational election will be those who have the most to lose if the IAM goes away ( * cough cough 100K club )

Freedumb,
The 50% + 1 threshold of all eligible voters in a representation election no longer exists. The election results are now based on ballots cast. Although your lack of knowledge on this issue is understandable it would be appreciated if you would cease in posting inaccurate information. We will be represented by a union based on the results of an election of our combined membership.

 

[freedom]

Freedumb,
The 50% + 1 threshold of all eligible voters in a representation election no longer exists. The election results are now based on ballots cast. Although your lack of knowledge on this issue is understandable it would be appreciated if you would cease in posting inaccurate information. We will be represented by a union based on the results of an election of our combined membership.

duh , that's why i made sure to mention i wasn't sure if that requirement still exists ......

and by the way , you won't be able to catch me ..... i'm not going to sit on my hands and wait for you slow pokes to get the ball rolling ....... I'm already over at the AA message board and i'm telling them MY story as seen throu MY eyes ...

i suggest you try to counter my view points before they become widely accepted at AA ...

 

[robbedagain]

i bet most of them are reading your messages on the us board as well but system wide most of them know some at us just as vice versa i also cant imagine half or 75% of them accepting your views esp after they see the garbage you post on here

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

You know,I've been through both pre and post chapter 11 fleet service contracts and so far I can't seem to find any mention of this COC we supposedly gave up for the 4.3%.

We gave up profit sharing.Read the actual MOU,I linked to it earlier in the thread.


I wouldn't base any assumptions on how AA fleet service will vote based on a few conversations with retired or former employees.

One other thing,for the love of god,lay off the caps lock.Shouting doesn't serve any purpose.

 

[ChockJockey]

One other thing,for the love of god,lay off the caps lock.Shouting doesn't serve any purpose.

Caps lock is cruise control for COOL. B)

 

[ograc]

duh , that's why i made sure to mention i wasn't sure if that requirement still exists ......

and by the way , you won't be able to catch me ..... i'm not going to sit on my hands and wait for you slow pokes to get the ball rolling ....... I'm already over at the AA message board and i'm telling them MY story as seen throu MY eyes ...

i suggest you try to counter my view points before they become widely accepted at AA ...

If you continue to post information you are not sure is even accurate you lose all, if any credibility you have. When you continue to post inaccuate information you will be called out, brought to the light and seen as a source lacking credibilty who's only agenda is division through the circulation of misinformation. In the end it will be seen for what it is... MY story, My eyes... Me, Me, Me with no validity, credibility or credence. Carry on Freedum!

 

[Jester]

I agree, AA fleet loyalty to the TWU is hardly a given. I'd imagine most of the folks there would welcome the opportunity to look at alternatives. I'm skeptical the TWU has retained enough defenders to gain sufficient traction to defend its numbers.

To be sure there will be some serious fighting, but by those within the respective union leadership, as the rank and file will pay only marginal interest in the debate, especially as both groups will offer unsustainable promises and platitudes. In addition, as neither side's rank and file know the other side's leadership, it will reduce to a vote of confidence and popularity contest as to the Devil we know.

Personally, I am not too impressed with the IAM Devil I know... this blaming the Membership for voting on a contract that had serious flaws, in particular, the attendance policy, and the lack of importance it is given to the matter even 4 years later. In terms of personalities does anyone think LAS transplant MM is worth $60,000 of our dues money? That guy is all hat and no cattle.

Not to say that the TWU leadership doesn't have its problems, as I am certain of that, but I don't know them, and if it is a vote of confidence and a personality contest, the grass looks greener with the other side. People may point to the TWU being a poor representive of West. However, as America West never made much money, it was a tough sell to demand higher wages and benefits, but the TWU has been very successful with highly profitable Southwest Airlines. Has the IAM been all that successful with any FSA group in the last 10 years? The HA CBA was a disaster. Hell, they lost to a vote to represent the combined DL and NW fleet service merged work group, and DL almost voted for a union a year prior WITHOUT the NW agents! Did a sizable number of NW agents vote against their own union?! So now DL has no union with FSAs as it was deemed to be a better option than having the IAM... that's saying a great deal!

So I hope I have saved everyone further analysis as to the issues and we can stop obsessing over something that won't begin to be an issue until a merger has been announced.