Dec 2012/Jan 2013 IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[freedom]

May I ask just what you consider your side? What did you win? It's a known fact that you are in a hub, and threw the small stations under the bus for a raise. Don't get me wrong, many do it, but don't boast about it.

Well first off , if I sound a bit Arrogant , I suppose it's because I am ... I mean you have to be a bit full of yourself if your proposing to fight not only management but also possibly the other workforce .. Oh , and yes I do get a bit of a small thrill off of fighting ..

Let me be clear to everyone reading this , that I am NOT the first person to throw their field stations under the bus .... Class two stations anyone ? So the blood is not uniquely on my hands alone .. What we here in the west did , we had to do , because our pay scale was nothing short of pathetic ... Until you've walked in our shoes I don't think you can fully understand ..At no time did I ever get feeling that what we were doing was wrong or evil ... While I was concerned about the loss of our field stations , it was at a "later date " I think two years after contract ratification , and I at the time didn't think the US Economy would even continue on ...

It truly is a shame that our company contracted out so many field stations ... and I've talked to and work here in PHX with people who have been affected by this .. What I can tell you , is that now that i'm making a wage that I feel that I can get by on ... I will not support a SINGLE more city being outsourced ... not a SINGLE ONE ...So if we have to fight with the company for the next five years , so be it .... but if Management is reading this right now , and your thinking of proposing Job cuts that will result in the loss of fleet service jobs ..... It ain't happening ..........

 

[ChockJockey]

None of this matters now. The company took the two different fleet groups which had passionately different wants and expectations and played them against each other. The most successful part in this as far as management is concerned - beyond the obvious cost savings of closing stations - is that five years on we're still arguing about it. Talk about a return on investment. Since when does calling people sellouts do anything for solidarity? This kind of division just sets us up for future failures.

What concerns me is that turf sensitivities between the IAM an TWU are going to force AA and US fleet against each other when they should be sharing notes as soon as possible. My preference is to stay with the IAM, but I'm not going to take part in a bitter, years-long labor battle to keep it. Just like Uncle Doug and pals are doing, we have to learn from our past mistakes and prove that the losses taken were not in vain but have taught us valuable lessons.

1. We should compile a master list of all AA and US stations currently serviced by mainline employees and pledge to it mutual protection as a line in the sand against any further reductions. (Anyone have these?)

2. Contract language must be put in place that specifies the qualifications, process, and timetable under which stations that meet criteria to be in-housed and made so, and a schedule of penalties put in place to prevent foot-dragging on the part of management.

3. Contract language must be put in place that guarantees and specifies just compensation and due process for displaced mainline employees in the cases of station reductions/closings.

No point in settling for anything else, can't afford to.

 

[freedom]

None of this matters now. The company took the two different fleet groups which had passionately different wants and expectations and played them against each other. The most successful part in this as far as management is concerned - beyond the obvious cost savings of closing stations - is that five years on we're still arguing about it. Talk about a return on investment. Since when does calling people sellouts do anything for solidarity? This kind of division just sets us up for future failures.

What concerns me is that turf sensitivities between the IAM an TWU are going to force AA and US fleet against each other when they should be sharing notes as soon as possible. My preference is to stay with the IAM, but I'm not going to take part in a bitter, years-long labor battle to keep it. Just like Uncle Doug and pals are doing, we have to learn from our past mistakes and prove that the losses taken were not in vain but have taught us valuable lessons.

1. We should compile a master list of all AA and US stations currently serviced by mainline employees and pledge to it mutual protection as a line in the sand against any further reductions. (Anyone have these?)

2. Contract language must be put in place that specifies the qualifications, process, and timetable under which stations that meet criteria to be in-housed and made so, and a schedule of penalties put in place to prevent foot-dragging on the part of management.

3. Contract language must be put in place that guarantees and specifies just compensation and due process for displaced mainline employees in the cases of station reductions/closings.

No point in settling for anything else, can't afford to.

I believe that our first battle will be the TWU against the IAM .... in my view it's no contest , TWU has the numbers , and there are already many here at US Air who would support the TWU ... While the IAM is not completely worthless , they have had too much time to change and done nothing ... there is ZERO justification for our AGC's to be making 100K a year ... ZERO ... that money comes out of the workers pockets ... and then of course there is the Ponzi pension .... if the IAM suddenly has a change of heart and drops the AGC's wages down to 75K a year and releases us from the Ponzi pension , I would be keen to support them ...... but that's not going to happen ....

I should also note that the reason I feel the first fight will be against the IAM is that they have too many Union people waiting in line to try and get into one of these 100k positions .. The draw of this kind of money is just too powerful ....Right now it's not yet certain that we will even merge , but if we do I STRONGLY URGE all IAM union officials to see which way the wind is going to blow and SUPPORT THE TWU ........

Once we decide which union is going to be left standing after the dust settles , then it's on to a joint contract ...

 

[cltrat]

just curious have you checked to see what the TWU equvilent to an AGC makes?

 

[cltrat]

just curious have you checked to see what the TWU equvilent to an AGC makes?

or finding an AA employee who says something good about TWU is as rare as a solar eclipse

 

[freedom]

just curious have you checked to see what the TWU equvilent to an AGC makes?or finding an AA employee who says something good about TWU is as rare as a solar eclipse

no I haven't but I doubt it's more than what our AGC's make ... I would be dumb founded if it were ...... but even if they DID make more , I would still support the TWU in order to escape the Ponzi pension . If I were only looking at the wage scale of the union leaders , and the TWU made more , I would support the IAM in that case .

Once they take a look at some of the skeletons in our collective US air closet , umm I don't think they will be too keen to take on the union that 100% backstabs you at some point ...

Class two cities so PHL can keep catering , 60 day rule , West throwing it's own field stations under the bus for 20 pieces of silver , The unbreakable union Pension that's "guaranteed" to be there for you being cut in half , over paid union officials ... our list goes on and on and on ..

 

[ograc]

I hate to think the number of people I work with here now in CLT displaced by his proud yes vote

To accept displacement and commute to another city in order to maintain your employment is another hardship members and their families are forced to endure when outsourcing language in a contract is agreed to by a union negotiating committee and ratified by the membership. Unfortunately we cannot change history. We can, however, hopefully learn from it. IMO... going forward; both US and AA Fleet should stand united on this issue so the message is heard loud and clear, not only by management, but whichever union seeks to represent the group.

 

[ChockJockey]

I believe that our first battle will be the TWU against the IAM .... in my view it's no contest , TWU has the numbers , and there are already many here at US Air who would support the TWU ... While the IAM is not completely worthless , they have had too much time to change and done nothing ... there is ZERO justification for our AGC's to be making 100K a year ... ZERO ... that money comes out of the workers pockets ... and then of course there is the Ponzi pension .... if the IAM suddenly has a change of heart and drops the AGC's wages down to 75K a year and releases us from the Ponzi pension , I would be keen to support them ...... but that's not going to happen ....

I should also note that the reason I feel the first fight will be against the IAM is that they have too many Union people waiting in line to try and get into one of these 100k positions .. The draw of this kind of money is just too powerful ....Right now it's not yet certain that we will even merge , but if we do I STRONGLY URGE all IAM union officials to see which way the wind is going to blow and SUPPORT THE TWU ........

Once we decide which union is going to be left standing after the dust settles , then it's on to a joint contract ...

I'm not looking forward to any "battle" with the TWU. What is more important and valuable in the case of an impending merger, solidarity within the craft or solidarity within an acronym? I have no interest in seeing union resources (i.e. my dues) funding a smear campaign against an organization that may very well end up being my bargaining agent. Unfortunately this would likely be part of the process of any election between the two, and democracy is typically a messy affair. Unions are self-interested entities just like any other.

The craft at AA and US will have to take account of any organizing entity aspiring to representation. They should be given a chance to highlight their victories, explain their failures, and detail their plans/visions for a united fleet service group within the new airline. All the better if we can do it this time without any physical violence. Then we choose. For those looking for an opportunity to engage and mobilize the membership your opportunity may be coming sooner rather than later.

AGC compensation and Pension are secondary matters as far as I'm concerned. The primary goal should be to tourniquet losses and negotiate real scope protections.

 

[freedom]

oh that's right , I forgot , our union is the one that nearly killed those 4 guys who were just out organizing ... whoops , yet another log to throw on the IAM funeral pyre....

 

[robbedagain]

lets see freedom having been in a station that went from mainline to being mainline express back to mainline then shafted all together.. ive been there done that along with wings too let me tell you this you think that twu may have the numbers i like to see if aa folks would agree with you... after all may be they want the twu to be their union with us i dont think so my neighbor a recently retired aa employee told me today he cant think of anyone who he has worked with in his 35 yr career who would support the twu do you want a union like that with no pension one who has said they give up coc and all just for a lousy 4.3 raise i doubt it its so nice of you wantin to toss your coworkers under the bus hell why not just toss them on a motor boat without an anchor n life jackets since you feel that way between the iam and the twu i like to see the iam stay but i sure as hell would not want to see the twu represent us with the proposal they got for aa

 

[ChockJockey]

oh that's right , I forgot , our union is the one that nearly killed those 4 guys who were just out organizing ... whoops , yet another log to throw on the IAM funeral pyre....

Not fair or accurate to indict the entire union for the actions of a handful of thugs. OTOH, there were times and places in this country where the rights of working people were secured only after bloodshed. There are today those who have put themselves so much in the favor of one union or another that they see organizing contests as threats to their livelihood. Some seem to equate being a good unionist to having a slavish loyalty to one union or another, we will have to expect and be wary of these people.

 

[freedom]

Not fair or accurate to indict the entire union for the actions of a handful of thugs. OTOH, there were times and places in this country where the rights of working people were secured only after bloodshed. There are today those who have put themselves so much in the favor of one union or another that they see organizing contests as threats to their livelihood. Some seem to equate being a good unionist to having a slavish loyalty to one union or another, we will have to expect and be wary of these people.

well I'll tell you what , it certainly doesn't help when the Union leaders make ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR ......... (and that's just the AGC's ) ... I would think that would make anyone want to "fight " for their union ... that kind of money messes with people's minds ..

 

[ChockJockey]

lets see freedom having been in a station that went from mainline to being mainline express back to mainline then shafted all together.. ive been there done that along with wings too let me tell you this you think that twu may have the numbers i like to see if aa folks would agree with you... after all may be they want the twu to be their union with us i dont think so my neighbor a recently retired aa employee told me today he cant think of anyone who he has worked with in his 35 yr career who would support the twu do you want a union like that with no pension one who has said they give up coc and all just for a lousy 4.3 raise i doubt it its so nice of you wantin to toss your coworkers under the bus hell why not just toss them on a motor boat without an anchor n life jackets since you feel that way between the iam and the twu i like to see the iam stay but i sure as hell would not want to see the twu represent us with the proposal they got for aa

I agree, AA fleet loyalty to the TWU is hardly a given. I'd imagine most of the folks there would welcome the opportunity to look at alternatives. I'm skeptical the TWU has retained enough defenders to gain sufficient traction to defend its numbers.

 

[ChockJockey]

well I'll tell you what , it certainly doesn't help when the Union leaders make ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR ......... (and that's just the AGC's ) ... I would think that would make anyone want to "fight " for their union ... that kind of money messes with people's minds ..

Yes, I imagine it would mess with the minds of people who are so emotionally confounded by arbitrarily large numbers they can't put them in perspective to the larger situation.

 

[freedom]

lets see freedom having been in a station that went from mainline to being mainline express back to mainline then shafted all together.. ive been there done that along with wings too let me tell you this you think that twu may have the numbers i like to see if aa folks would agree with you... after all may be they want the twu to be their union with us i dont think so my neighbor a recently retired aa employee told me today he cant think of anyone who he has worked with in his 35 yr career who would support the twu do you want a union like that with no pension one who has said they give up coc and all just for a lousy 4.3 raise i doubt it its so nice of you wantin to toss your coworkers under the bus hell why not just toss them on a motor boat without an anchor n life jackets since you feel that way between the iam and the twu i like to see the iam stay but i sure as hell would not want to see the twu represent us with the proposal they got for aa

umm yes ......let me think here , who DIDN'T give up their COC ??? hmmm , who spent YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS fighting for their COC in court only to get slapped down ? oh that's right the pilots ....What a waste of time and resources ! As for not having a pension , they had a 401K , and I bet their union didn't come to them and say "hey , that stuff we told you , sorry it was a lie , we have to cut your pension in half " ......At least if your in a 401K you have a fighting chance to determine your OWN future and you are not forced to suffer if the "general" pension fund loses money ...( because remember Robbed again , When the IAM pension takes a shortfall ,the money has to come from somewhere to make up for that , last time it was class A folk such as ourselves who got kicked down to class B ) Do you really want to get "robbed again " by the pension ?

Hey if some of you want to stay in the pension , that's fine , you do that , but those of us who are terrified of it ( after having our legs kicked out from under us ) should be allowed to leave .