Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

How is it that you recognize that fact but ignore the fact that without the merger with AWA US Airways was not going to survive?

In a merger the benefits are shared. So far every benefit has been handed to the east by separate ops.

You're idea of "sharing" is an anathema to unionism and if the Nicolau award is it I want no part of it...I prefer employment at will. Your "belief" that without US Airways, AWA was the next JetBlue is simply and factually unsustainable. But you and yours keep clinging to that "pleasant fiction".

I'm willing to "share" but if my time carries less weight than yours then I'm not interested. PERIOD.

AWA wasn't going to survive either...and that was in months. But say I guess if you say it enough it must be true. However, no one believes what you're saying on the East and few on the West believe it. Parker was right and I'll keep saying it....AWA was toast as well.

If pilots want to continue on the self destructive course of arbitration hearings and lawsuits that will be their choice unless something awful happens in a cockpit that causes a crash.

Then we're REALLY going to find out who's our Daddy!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Pilots applying at US Airways have the same deal. Too many applicants for too few jobs. Labor is a dime a dozen.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57561044/thousands-apply-for-american-airlines-job-openings/


.....administrative assistant willing to take a $10,000 pay cut to become a flight attendant.

"Delta Air Lines, headquartered in Atlanta, announced last week it was hiring 400 flight attendants. Delta has had 22,000 people apply so far, two more every minute."

"American Airlines announced in October it was hiring 1,500 new flight attendants. Twenty thousand applicants responded -- so many that American stopped taking resumes after eight days. Candidates had to pass a telephone interview before being invited this month to the airline's world headquarters in Fort Worth."

1.5 per 20.... Not even a "dime per dozen".

College degrees with Multi lingual skills. Americans are spoiled.

 

[Zone5]

How is it that you recognize that fact but ignore the fact that without the merger with AWA US Airways was not going to survive?

In a merger the benefits are shared. So far every benefit has been handed to the east by separate ops.

Gee, I don't know how anyone could fail to see that without "Fortress PHX", US Airways would have ceased to exist. :wacko: No doubt, AWA would have taken SWA to the "woodshed", had they remained the standalone "power house" they were, prior to the "merger".

As far as getting no benefit, how about those profit sharing checks? Not to mention the "superior" contract and pay rates AWA was able to "maintain" after the merger?


seajay

 

[EastUS1]

In a merger the benefits are shared. So far every benefit has been handed to the east by separate ops.

None out west have ever seemed at all concerned with "sharing" pay rates, (or anything else I can think of...you can keep the "dire wolves", "spartans" et al.) Seriously though: whatever happened to "You can live on LOA93 forever!"...? 😉 Suddenly; it's now "..every benefit has been handed to the east..."? I wish you people could/would at least make up your tiny minds and stick with a position. 🙂

 

[eastcoast]

How is it that you recognize that fact but ignore the fact that without the merger with AWA US Airways was not going to survive?

Simple. Situational ethics.

People like this only see things that support their current view of the world. That view changes direction like the wind.

 

[EastUS1]

Simple. Situational ethics.

People like this only see things that support their current view of the world. That view changes direction like the wind.

A more perfect definition of any and all who'd support "relative" seniority (or "relative" notions on anything really) couldn't be found.

 

[eastcoast]

Your "belief" that without US Airways, AWA was the next JetBlue is simply and factually unsustainable.

You are entitled to an opinion, just like the next guy. But it is irrelevant to his question. Regardless of the theorized fate of AWA absent the merger, it is still a fact that we were toast... days away from default. You didn't address that.

You and others claimed 'there was no way the money people would let US die.' Cash cow and all. So what is so different with your assessment that AA is in dire straights without this merger?

...unless something awful happens in a cockpit that causes a crash.

Then we're REALLY going to find out who's our Daddy!

With thoughts like this running through your head, you may want to consider EAP.

 

[eastcoast]

Gee, I don't know how anyone could fail to see that without "Fortress PHX", US Airways would have ceased to exist. :wacko: No doubt, AWA would have taken SWA to the "woodshed", had they remained the standalone "power house" they were, prior to the "merger".

As far as getting no benefit, how about those profit sharing checks? Not to mention the "superior" contract and pay rates AWA was able to "maintain" after the merger?


seajay

Why is it that every time a person brings up the imminent liquidation of US Airways that we faced, the usual suspects can only come back with "I know you are but what am I?"

Powers house or not... struggling AWA or market champion... It doesn't change the fact that US Airways was on life support and the plug was going to be pulled. Those who refuse to see or admit that, suddenly see AA as dying on the vine without a savior.

 

[Metroyet]

EOA is a POS. I guess spending a career as Karmas little hump toy "does things" to ones mind. Karma is just warming up.

 

[mrbreeze]

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha. Man that cracked me up. Do you honestly think that there is going to be a 7 years solid fence and separate ops? More delusion.

The only fence is going to be around the american WB. Besides the american pilots are going to laugh at your tiny attrition. Take a look at what they have.

The only different picture you are going to see is the west finally getting our fair share of this merger. Enjoy your stagnation.

You did ignore the facts I posted. No amount of dreaming will change the fact that you are not going to get DOH with the west or with american.

Clear,

You are the one throwing out this fantasy about the terrible numbers that APA must be shaking in their boots about. APA will look at all aspects and have a clear mind on what needs to be done....not a prejudiced opinion like you own.

APA and East attrition will definitely be figured into the equation, regardless of the approach taken......but, your naive to think it won't be looked at. Laugh all you want, but your inexperience with mergers is showing.....seperate ops is different than fences.

breeze

 

[cleardirect]

Clear,

You are the one throwing out this fantasy about the terrible numbers that APA must be shaking in their boots about. APA will look at all aspects and have a clear mind on what needs to be done....not a prejudiced opinion like you own.

APA and East attrition will definitely be figured into the equation, regardless of the approach taken......but, your naive to think it won't be looked at. Laugh all you want, but your inexperience with mergers is showing.....seperate ops is different than fences.

breeze

Well a union looking a seniority with a clear mind is going to be a refreshing change from east pilots demanding DOH.

BTW the APA will be prejudice at how they look at the list. They are not going to want 85% of the east pilot in the top 50% of "their" list.

So tell me how has separate ops been different than fences in our case? Separate ops that you east pilots have demanded. Imagine if you will 7 years fences on all growth and new flying reserved only for american pilots. Sound good to you?

 

[mrbreeze]

Well a union looking a seniority with a clear mind is going to be a refreshing change from east pilots demanding DOH.

BTW the APA will be prejudice at how they look at the list. They are not going to want 85% of the east pilot in the top 50% of "their" list.

So tell me how has separate ops been different than fences in our case? Separate ops that you east pilots have demanded. Imagine if you will 7 years fences on all growth and new flying reserved only for american pilots. Sound good to you?

With this merger that has never actually happened between East and West, it has been totally separate ops.....

Fences would have allowed AWA and AAA to be a single operation with restrictions on aircraft and domicile bidding. Aircraft, crews, routes, and F/As would function as one airline.....we would be flying West metal and blended crews of FAs and routes.....West crews would be flying East A/C and FAs/routes.

When you consider that single ops with fences to protect crews only in bidding aircraft and domiciles....then throw in the attrition, it is a more realistic approach to a fair outcome in the upcoming merger.

breeze

 

[Move2CLT]

Getting closer.....

AMR Pilots’ Board Reaches Agreement Needed for US Airways Merger

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]By Mary Jane Credeur - Dec 29, 2012[/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]The board representing AMR Corp. (AAMRQ)’s American Airlines pilots reached a transition agreement that removes another hurdle to a combination with US Airways Group Inc. that would form the world’s largest carrier.

By an 11-5 vote, the Allied Pilots Association’s board approved a memorandum of understanding to be considered by the managements of AMR and US Airways and the U.S. Airline Pilots Association, which represents US Airways’ pilots, APA said today in a statement. No terms were disclosed.

The accord takes the carriers closer to a possible merger by minimizing the risk of labor objections and easing the two pilot groups toward a joint contract that would align pay and work rules. AMR, which has been in bankruptcy since 2011, has a board meeting set for Jan. 9 to decide whether to go ahead on a combination, people familiar with the matter have said.

The Allied Pilots Association represents about 8,000 active pilots who fly for the Fort Worth, Texas-based American, while the U.S. Airline Pilots Association represents 5,200 who fly for Tempe, Arizona-based US Airways.

A combination of American, the third-biggest U.S. carrier, and No. 5 US Airways would surpass United Continental Holdings Inc. as the world’s largest airline, based on passenger traffic.

AMR filed for Chapter 11 protection in November 2011 ahead of a fourth straight annual loss, listing $24.7 billion in assets and $29.6 billion in debt.

To contact the reporter on this story: Mary Jane Credeur in Atlanta at mcredeur@bloomberg.net.

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Ed Dufner at edufner@bloomberg.net

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/...ys-merger.html[/background]

 

[Metroyet]

Getting closer.....

AMR Pilots’ Board Reaches Agreement Needed for US Airways Merger

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]By Mary Jane Credeur - Dec 29, 2012[/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]The board representing AMR Corp. (AAMRQ)’s American Airlines pilots reached a transition agreement that removes another hurdle to a combination with US Airways Group Inc. that would form the world’s largest carrier.

By an 11-5 vote, the Allied Pilots Association’s board approved a memorandum of understanding to be considered by the managements of AMR and US Airways and the U.S. Airline Pilots Association, which represents US Airways’ pilots, APA said today in a statement. No terms were disclosed.

The accord takes the carriers closer to a possible merger by minimizing the risk of labor objections and easing the two pilot groups toward a joint contract that would align pay and work rules. AMR, which has been in bankruptcy since 2011, has a board meeting set for Jan. 9 to decide whether to go ahead on a combination, people familiar with the matter have said.

The Allied Pilots Association represents about 8,000 active pilots who fly for the Fort Worth, Texas-based American, while the U.S. Airline Pilots Association represents 5,200 who fly for Tempe, Arizona-based US Airways.

A combination of American, the third-biggest U.S. carrier, and No. 5 US Airways would surpass United Continental Holdings Inc. as the world’s largest airline, based on passenger traffic.

AMR filed for Chapter 11 protection in November 2011 ahead of a fourth straight annual loss, listing $24.7 billion in assets and $29.6 billion in debt.

To contact the reporter on this story: Mary Jane Credeur in Atlanta at mcredeur@bloomberg.net.

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Ed Dufner at edufner@bloomberg.net

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/...ys-merger.html[/background]

...and USTUPID steps on their Johnson in...10...9...8...7...6...

 

[end_of_alpa]

You are entitled to an opinion, just like the next guy. But it is irrelevant to his question. Regardless of the theorized fate of AWA absent the merger, it is still a fact that we were toast... days away from default. You didn't address that.

You are entitled to your own opinion as well, but NOT your own facts. I knew what he was arguing and has always argued. I have addressed it. I too believe what Parker said was FACT...that US Airways was on the verge of liquidation.

But YOU (and him, BTW) are not taking in ALL the facts...and this is what Parker keeps telling you, that AWA had NO MONEY to get through the winter and had no money to buy ANY pieces of US Airways. AWA would be in BK in 2-3 short months and would have been even MORE certain to go the liquidation route in BK just like the guys in IND where we got the 3 757's.

You and others claimed 'there was no way the money people would let US die.' Cash cow and all. So what is so different with your assessment that AA is in dire straights without this merger?

I never claimed it but that is in FACT that without a merger NO money would have been invested...but that same analysis holds equally true for AWA....without a merger, same path to LIQUIDATION for AWA....that was the fear of the fate you would have had. Parker WAS worried about DIP financing for AWA in BK without a merger, go ask him.

That is FACT.

With thoughts like this running through your head, you may want to consider EAP.

SO when the NTSB talks about SilkAir and EgyptAir crashes and the pilots in those aircraft killing their PAX, or how about the SkyWest pilot here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video-shows-murder-suspect-crashing-plane-parking-lot/t/story?id=17669551

I was NOT inferring in anyway you, nor I nor anyone else I have knowledge of would do this...I was stating a possibility. That was all and I think you know that. The poor culture we have had between East and West to this point has at he least caused pilots to take a leave, quit and go to work for JetBlue, SWA, Virgin America and even international.

With a merger of us and AMR with the differences we carry with us people like Crandall and OShell are stating an obtuse point....that these things could possibly happen (implied) culture integration wise. That IS a safety issue and always will be.

I was told by someone late last year that (when they were at the CAPA meeting) the suicide rate for pilots at AMR was very high. What that number was I do not know, just that it was high, much like it was for the armed services now. I remember what it was like the second BK for US Airways and I can say many of our pilots were having difficulties. I would venture a guess that many others still are.

I can only count my own blessings and consider myself fortunate and blessed. There are many less fortunate than myself. And yes, if any DO need the services of EAP I certainly hope they avail themselves of that service.

If you are saying I need it you need to be prepared to back up your assertion.