Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

So, Jamie boy. Who is this Dom guy you had me pegged for. I want to buy him a beer.

Having fun, yet?

Here it comes, folks. He's back....the typical West pilot philosophy.

 

[EastUS1]

They went to Phoenix BEFORE taking office.

Oh well then, everything's just fine I suppose. What could be more innocent than a not-yet-seated union president merely taking a spontaneous, personal little vacation in PHX immediately after being elected?...Nothing the least bit suspicious in that....Well...umm...except for a few lingering questions:

1) Precisely WHO/what parties were met with there?
2) For WHAT specific purpose(s)?
3) WHAT does "a concious effort to reach out to the West" actually mean, in ANY semblance of honestly expressed english terms?
4) Would part of that "concious effort" have involved conversations with management as well? If so: for WHAT particular purpose(s)?
5) WHY do the line pilots not know ANY of the above, in even the slightest full and honest details to this day?

 

[EastUS1]

Here it comes, folks. He's back....the typical West pilot philosophy.

One must feel some proper sympathy. Seriously; how would you like to go through years of life (or perhaps even all) perpetually drowning in all that anger?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

East said "Oh well then, everything's just fine I suppose. What could be more innocent than a not-yet-seated union official merely taking a personal little vacation in PHX?...Nothing the least bit suspicious in that....Well...umm...except for a few lingering questions:

1) Precicesly WHO/what parties were met with there?
2) For WHAT specific purpose(s)?
3) WTF does "reaching out to the west" actually mean, in ANY semblance of honestly expressed, english terminology?
4) WHY do the line pilots not know any of the above in even the slightest full details, to this day?"

You sense of entitlement here is epic, inverse to your insight and sense of political process. Why don't you "ask" them and tell them you read about it on the internet, and you are demanding a recounting of their personal politics, because you type in capital letters. Unions are political; agendas (oooh, scary scary!) have to be backed by votes and give and take. You come here every day demanding this and that, telling the union what to do, but have no idea of how to go out and do it. That is why your only work is here, behind a keyboard.

It was no vacation, it was political. The West had been purposefully excluded for years from being included in committees by Cleary. It was time to talk to 1/3 of our
pilots and start to include them. Are you dense, did you not see West members appointed to committee positions after the COC? That did not happen in a political vacuum. And no Officer, BPR member, Committee member, or MIG owes an accounting of every conversion they have about anything union. You are confusing negotiations with the Company, that is different.

And as to "WTH does "reaching out to the west actually mean" I guess I know your ilk. Willing to risk all our gains by stupidly excluding members from being part of the process. You don't have to worry, good union men and women know better. Go to the union yellow pages and see for yourself.

Greeter

 

[Phoenix]

Oh well then, everything's just fine I suppose. What could be more innocent than a not-yet-seated union president merely taking a spontaneous, personal little vacation in PHX?...Nothing the least bit suspicious in that....Well...umm...except for a few lingering questions:

1) Precicesly WHO/what parties were met with there?
2) For WHAT specific purpose(s)?
3) WHAT does "a concious effort to reach out to the West" actually mean, in ANY semblance of honestly expressed english terms?
4) Would part of that "concious effort" have involved conversations with management as well? If so: for WHAT particular purpose(s)?
5) WHY do the line pilots not know ANY of the above, in even the slightest full and honest details to this day?

Excellent questions all, but the biggest question IMHO is why an elected rep would go talk to anyone with the apparent and imminent power of a president but yet without the technical responsibility to be dispatched to do so or be required to provide any report, minutes, or memo of agreements forged.

Why would a president elect participate in something that would subject him to suspicion? It was a big mistake at the very least. At the worst, he just needs a shift on the BPR to seal the deal..

 

[EastUS1]

And no Officer, BPR member, Committee member, or MIG owes an accounting of every conversion they have about anything union.

WHO was speaking of but a mere conversation? We were talking of a political and very possibly personally motivated litte jaunt out west from a freshly elected union president....hardly so minimal an event as you would dismiss with your patronizing response to a po' trailer-trash-line-guy. 😉

Thanks for the both incredible and instant showing of the true colors there....My oh my! .."your ilk"? 😉...I've not heard or read such condescending BS since the good old, "royal" alpo days, which tells me all I need ever know about the whole recall business and it's true purpose and agenda 🙂

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Excellent questions all, but the biggest question IMHO is why an elected rep would go talk to anyone with the apparent and imminent power of a president but yet without the technical responsibility to be dispatched to do so or be required to provide any report, minutes, or memo of agreements forged.

Why would a president elect participate in something that would subject him to suspicion? It was a big mistake at the very least. At the worst, he just needs a shift on the BPR to seal the deal..

I thought you of all pilots would be the last to take my bait. So it's true, talking to "west" pilots requires a full accounting, political and otherwise, to the BPR. Does an Officer have to report back with minutes when he talks to the DCA reps? I will save you the embarrassment....NO.I love those who have never held, actually passed, on elected office telling others how "politics" works. Unbelievable.Greeter

 

[EastUS1]

..... with the apparent and imminent power of a president but yet without the technical responsibility to be dispatched to do so or be required to provide any report, minutes, or memo of agreements forged.

Greeter was just kind enough to clarify all that for us = We line swine, but lowly and common-as-dirt little peasants, have no right to even ask! 😉

 

[EastUS1]

.NO.I love those who have never held, actually passed, on elected office telling others how "politics" works. Unbelievable.Greeter

Thanks again for fully clairfying the true colors involved here..."Your Royal Highness" Ah's juss' a lowly field hand and should know my place an' not be gittin' uppity! I now must realize that my "...sense of entitlement here is epic"!!! How DARE I ask any seemingly obvious questions!? Points properly due for the "Unbelievable" observation. I can find no more suitable term here as well.

Tell you what; if it's so difficult, nay impossible for you to even note the contacted parties that were involved in PHX...well...don't waste any more keystrokes on this issue. When you said something about reaching out to "the West", well...call me crazy, but I thought it appropriate to inquire as to just who constitued "the West"....? If you and "your ilk" seeking the recall can't handle even such basic inquiries; why should any reasonable person want anything to do with your entirely undefined, and evermore-increasingly questionable, little agenda?

PS: No need for such a patronizing attitude towards we unwashed and ignorant, who've no idea how "politics" works....We do know the basics at least...best expressed in the first lines of the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bfe6CgYbH8

 

[end_of_alpa]

East said "Oh well then, everything's just fine I suppose. What could be more innocent than a not-yet-seated union official merely taking a personal little vacation in PHX?...Nothing the least bit suspicious in that....Well...umm...except for a few lingering questions:

1) Precicesly WHO/what parties were met with there?
2) For WHAT specific purpose(s)?
3) WTF does "reaching out to the west" actually mean, in ANY semblance of honestly expressed, english terminology?
4) WHY do the line pilots not know any of the above in even the slightest full details, to this day?"

You sense of entitlement here is epic, inverse to your insight and sense of political process. Why don't you "ask" them and tell them you read about it on the internet, and you are demanding a recounting of their personal politics, because you type in capital letters. Unions are political; agendas (oooh, scary scary!) have to be backed by votes and give and take. You come here every day demanding this and that, telling the union what to do, but have no idea of how to go out and do it. That is why your only work is here, behind a keyboard.

It was no vacation, it was political. The West had been purposefully excluded for years from being included in committees by Cleary. It was time to talk to 1/3 of our
pilots and start to include them. Are you dense, did you not see West members appointed to committee positions after the COC? That did not happen in a political vacuum. And no Officer, BPR member, Committee member, or MIG owes an accounting of every conversion they have about anything union. You are confusing negotiations with the Company, that is different.

And as to "WTH does "reaching out to the west actually mean" I guess I know your ilk. Willing to risk all our gains by stupidly excluding members from being part of the process. You don't have to worry, good union men and women know better. Go to the union yellow pages and see for yourself.

Greeter

The "issue" was never about not wanting to include them. The issue, for them, was they felt and believed they were entitled to 50 percent of the operation of the union. I was all for including them, listening to issues, including them working with them, etc. but the mantra was always equal representation meant equal numbers of pilots East West. Even after west members got appointed to many of the committees, the one they REALLY wanted was the NAC and the only thing they were going to support was Nicolau.

The funny thing about the MOU and I would think the West reps saw through it for what they thought it was, a capitulation on Nicolau, Simmons and Velez didn't support it. Simmons is on here why don't he explain why he voted for sending the ou out with a no vote?

It's not a matter of excluding them but if you read your membership application it says you support the C&B. They don't support it and they become members anyway. I'm all for third participation. They demand MOST.

So tell me, how's that ever work?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

The "issue" was never about not wanting to include them. The issue, for them, was they felt and believed they were entitled to 50 percent of the operation of the union. I was all for including them, listening to issues, including them working with them, etc. but the mantra was always equal representation meant equal numbers of pilots East West. Even after west members got appointed to many of the committees, the one they REALLY wanted was the NAC and the only thing they were going to support was Nicolau.

The funny thing about the MOU and I would think the West reps saw through it for what they thought it was, a capitulation on Nicolau, Simmons and Velez didn't support it. Simmons is on here why don't he explain why he voted for sending the ou out with a no vote?

It's not a matter of excluding them but if you read your membership application it says you support the C&B. They don't support it and they become members anyway. I'm all for third participation. They demand MOST.

So tell me, how's that ever work?

End, we ALL lived the days you speak of. And of course it was difficult to even get a West pilot to participate in the union in any way, much less as a Rep. The intimidation out there was extreme, to the point guys went on furlough without Union paid medical, out of fear for joining only for that purpose. So all that aside, and even if I chose to agree with you on every point in the past; what changed on April 18, 2012 that now found us with PHX pilots participating, in fact doing excellent work on our committees? What changed? I know.Do you think that participation, even if you consider it token (I don't), serves us better going forward? I am not going to clarify that question.Greeter

 

[end_of_alpa]

I thought you of all pilots would be the last to take my bait. So it's true, talking to "west" pilots requires a full accounting, political and otherwise, to the BPR. Does an Officer have to report back with minutes when he talks to the DCA reps? I will save you the embarrassment....NO.I love those who have never held, actually passed, on elected office telling others how "politics" works. Unbelievable.Greeter

No, it wasn't that per se. But they did go over on the QT. personally I would have announced it but history is history.

There is no special qualification to hold elected office. Besides I never felt politics was the sovereign domain of the party elete, either. Getting into elected office is a sales job....not a qualification job.

 

[end_of_alpa]

End, we ALL lived the days you speak of. And of course it was difficult to even get a West pilot to participate in the union in any way, much less as a Rep. The intimidation out there was extreme, to the point guys went on furlough without Union paid medical, out of fear for joining only for that purpose. So all that aside, and even if I chose to agree with you on every point in the past; what changed on April 18, 2012 that now found us with PHX pilots participating, in fact doing excellent work on our committees? What changed? I know.Do you think that participation, even if you consider it token (I don't), serves us better going forward? I am not going to clarify that question.Greeter

I understand. And yes, we do have some more participation on committees. E.g., Grievance has Koontz. Makes logical sense to have someone who lives and knows the West contract. Tracy had that west help too, BTW. No West pilot on merger. Holmes and Caliveri(sp?) on NAC which gave us the defunct MOU. Always had Plapp as HEAD of the hotel committee. Maybe four or five more West committee members than we had before.

Flood of West volunteers don't come to mind here.

Oh, BTW, what happened to MY platform where I wanted the West to have an office in PHX where they could come to work, maybe someplace they could call their own? Maybe Gary and Steve feel that any operation out in PHX working autonomously might jeopardize USAPA's DFR.

So what changed? Nothing. Gary has done nothing effectively to improve that. Why? Because giving credit to anybody in that position, we won't get a contract with the company taking (pretending, really) the innocent road, the West taking the Nicolau road, the union taking the DOH /longevity road and the NMB taking the"time out" road.

Then there's the reality road where somewhere in time the roads again cross paths and these issues are revisited. Maybe then something will give yield.

I know the road Gary and Steve are walking are the same Cleary and Randy walked....it's the same road with the same view. Changing reps isn't going to change the view, it's just going to make the ride more interesting.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

End, we ALL lived the days you speak of. And of course it was difficult to even get a West pilot to participate in the union in any way, much less as a Rep. The intimidation out there was extreme, to the point guys went on furlough without Union paid medical, out of fear for joining only for that purpose. So all that aside, and even if I chose to agree with you on every point in the past; what changed on April 18, 2012 that now found us with PHX pilots participating, in fact doing excellent work on our committees? What changed? I know.Do you think that participation, even if you consider it token (I don't), serves us better going forward? I am not going to clarify that question.Greeter

For crying out loud, that is not true in the least. Most people were so sickened by usapa they didn't want anything to do with it no matter what anyone told them. It took a long time for people to look past that and see the logic and accept why, despite it all, mig status was actually a necessary evil.

I was as early a mig as any west pilot, outside of day one migs such as EF himself. No one harrassed me.

 

[end_of_alpa]

For crying out loud, that is not true in the least. Most people were so sickened by usapa they didn't want anything to do with it no matter what anyone told them. It took a long time for people to look past that and see the logic and accept why, despite it all, mig status was actually a necessary evil.

I was as early a mig as any west pilot, outside of day one migs such as EF himself. No one harrassed me.

Please elaborate. I would like to hear your perspective.

Thanks.