Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

How did this resolution take money out of your pockets? It did not ask for any of the PBGC money.

It was asking that the company put more money in the 401K of those pilots that don't have PBGC money. That is a longer span and time to accumulate.

It was created to get ALL pilots the same retirement. Not just the chosen few.

Take a minute. Calm down, grow up and read the resolution without the biased view.

Do you have a problem with all pilots receiving equal treatment? Do you have a problem with pilots that don't have PBGC money getting a higher contribution in their 401K?

Spoken like a good socialist. The "chosen few" worked for these benefits. They weren't just handed to us. This is by far the most offensive suggestion I have heard from the West pilot group. Just another stupid idea trying to drive a wedge between the new hires and the East pilots. You people are amazing. How long did it take the brain trust at AOL to hatch this scheme anyway???

Driver...

 

[EastUS1]

Spoken like a good socialist.

I'd submit that such drivel transcends "Basic Socialism 101" and steps even further into the Red Star Zone. Examine the essential elements here sir: cleardirect"Do you have a problem with all pilots receiving equal treatment?" None would argue that part. Where it dives off the cliff is with the following: cleardirect"Do you have a problem with pilots that don't have PBGC money getting a higher contribution in their 401K?" Touch that up against the following and compare: "From each according to his abilities. To each according to his needs" Karl Marx

Bottom Line here = Some actually earned their pittance of a pension that was left via the PBGC. Some haven't, yet should garner the same rewards. Those that earned their pension remnants/PBGC funds, should magically not receive the same enhanced monies as those that didn't...? That's arguably beyond the tenets of mere socialism. If that's insufficient to convince, let's finish with this gem: cleardirect "It was created to get ALL pilots the same retirement. Not just the chosen few." Wow! Again; for anyone needing a second whack with the Stalin-Stick, we have Kommisar Kleardirect "....ALL pilots the same retirement. Not just the chosen few." 😉

 

[cleardirect]

Spoken like a good socialist. The "chosen few" worked for these benefits. They weren't just handed to us. This is by far the most offensive suggestion I have heard from the West pilot group. Just another stupid idea trying to drive a wedge between the new hires and the East pilots. You people are amazing. How long did it take the brain trust at AOL to hatch this scheme anyway???

Driver...

You guys are really funny.

Now you are claiming that we are socialist. Dude what do you think a union is all about? A union is designed from the ground up as a socialist organization. To offer equal benefits to ALL, each and every member. Otherwise we would be at will employees and upgrades and pay raises would be done by merit.

I give up. You east pilots are to stupid to educate. If you can't understand about equal benefits there is no helping you people. Hurry up and retire. Take your ignorant thick heads and go.

You scream and demand equal pay parity. Is that not socialist? The west had a better contract. We worked for that contract and now you are asking us to just hand it to you.

The "chosen few" worked for these benefits. They weren't just handed to us.

you did say this right.

Soon we will hear what happened in DFW. Parker is going to make a decision to move this entire deal forward. He has a list. He has a law suit aimed at him and he has usapa that will go away very soon. Parker will shortly have a new group to play with and the east will find out what it is like to be treated as the minority.

 

[RSVP767]

How did this resolution take money out of your pockets? It did not ask for any of the PBGC money.

It was asking that the company put more money in the 401K of those pilots that don't have PBGC money. That is a longer span and time to accumulate.

It was created to get ALL pilots the same retirement. Not just the chosen few.

Take a minute. Calm down, grow up and read the resolution without the biased view.

Do you have a problem with all pilots receiving equal treatment? Do you have a problem with pilots that don't have PBGC money getting a higher contribution in their 401K?

YGTBSM! Here is the problem: Giving the West what would amount to an equivalent 'PBGC' benefit is like collecting on a Homeowners Insurance Policy without ever having owned a home. You never had a pension to guarantee! Get over it!

Let's see......"you did not ask for any money from the PBGC". Yeah, no ####. But I'd love to see you try....they will laugh in your face!!! (see above).

"It was asking that the company put more money in the 401K of those pilots that don't have PBGC money". Ok....so, please tell me, where does this 'extra money' come from? It's not an extra slice of pie....it comes from the same pie........the whole pie.....the only pie the company offers.....which means it comes from everybody else who wouldn't be getting that extra bump in their 401K contribution.

Now, maybe there is some hope that you can comprehend this......you mention "longer span of time to accumulate".....very good, I think you are onto something here. You see, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that anyone under 45 at the time of the merger or any new hire under the age of 45 will have a larger nest egg from which to draw than those receiving PBGC money.

This idea that the West, having never had a defined benefit plan, should be made whole to those who will receive PBGC money, having lost their DB plan, is ludicrous. Give it up! You know, over the years we have had pilots from Braniff and other airlines who had lost their pensions and were due a PBGC benefit......not once did anyone come up with the asinine idea that we should be made whole, or get more, on account that some were getting a benefit that not everyone had. But of course the West does......so exemplifying of the West's entitlement mindset!

 

[EastUS1]

I give up. You east pilots are to stupid to educate. If you can't understand about equal benefits there is no helping you people. Hurry up and retire. Take your ignorant thick heads and go.

Uh Oh!...methinks a Purge is being planned!!! 🙂

Kleardirect: "If you can't understand about equal benefits there is no helping you people." If you can't understand the concept of equal work for equal benefits, then there's NO helping you out of your obvious confusion here, indicated by such pithy gems as: Kleardirect "You scream and demand equal pay parity. Is that not socialist" Well...no, actually it isn't, as least as determined by the SCOTUS. Equal pay for equal work isn't an inherently un-American notion at all. Mr. Marx's "To each according to his needs", which is what you're trying to "sell" here..well....not-so-much anything the founding fathers had in mind at all. 😉

 

[EastUS1]

YGTBSM! Here is the problem: Giving the West what would amount to an equivalent 'PBGC' benefit is like collecting on a Homeowners Insurance Policy without ever having owned a home. You never had a pension to guarantee! Get over it!

Let's see......"you did not ask for any money from the PBGC". Yeah, no ####. But I'd love to see you try....they will laugh in your face!!! (see above).

"It was asking that the company put more money in the 401K of those pilots that don't have PBGC money". Ok....so, please tell me, where does this 'extra money' come from? It's not an extra slice of pie....it comes from the same pie........the whole pie.....the only pie the company offers.....which means it comes from everybody else who wouldn't be getting that extra bump in their 401K contribution.

Now, maybe there is some hope that you can comprehend this......you mention "longer span of time to accumulate".....very good, I think you are onto something here. You see, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that anyone under 45 at the time of the merger or any new hire under the age of 45 will have a larger nest egg from which to draw than those receiving PBGC money.

This idea that the West, having never had a defined benefit plan, should be made whole to those who will receive PBGC money, having lost their DB plan, is ludicrous. Give it up! You know, over the years we have had pilots from Braniff and other airlines who had lost their pensions and were due a PBGC benefit......not once did anyone come up with the asinine idea that we should be made whole, or get more, on account that some were getting a benefit that not everyone had. But of course the West does......so exemplifying of the West's entitlement mindset!

Well summarized sir.

 

[A320 Driver]

You guys are really funny.

Now you are claiming that we are socialist. Dude what do you think a union is all about? A union is designed from the ground up as a socialist organization. To offer equal benefits to ALL, each and every member. Otherwise we would be at will employees and upgrades and pay raises would be done by merit.

I give up. You east pilots are to stupid to educate. If you can't understand about equal benefits there is no helping you people. Hurry up and retire. Take your ignorant thick heads and go.

You scream and demand equal pay parity. Is that not socialist? The west had a better contract. We worked for that contract and now you are asking us to just hand it to you.

you did say this right.

Soon we will hear what happened in DFW. Parker is going to make a decision to move this entire deal forward. He has a list. He has a law suit aimed at him and he has usapa that will go away very soon. Parker will shortly have a new group to play with and the east will find out what it is like to be treated as the minority.

Equal pay for equal work. THAT's what we want. You have no concept of how much we gave back to the company over the years trying to keep our retirement intact. And after all that, we get pennies on the dollar. Then you come along as if you have some right to that which I sacrificed for...it REALLY gets my goat. It's pretty clear to me what you are doing here. You're using this and anything else you can think of to bolster your numbers so you can make a run at USAPA. You must be pretty desperate at this point since you can't find a court to help you take our seniority.

Driver...

 

[EastUS1]

You must be pretty desperate at this point since you can't find a court to help you take our seniority.

It does seem the case that the Cirque de St Nic's main tent is leaking badly of late.

 

[cleardirect]

Equal pay for equal work. THAT's what we want. You have no concept of how much we gave back to the company over the years trying to keep our retirement intact. And after all that, we get pennies on the dollar. Then you come along as if you have some right to that which I sacrificed for...it REALLY gets my goat. It's pretty clear to me what you are doing here. You're using this and anything else you can think of to bolster your numbers so you can make a run at USAPA. You must be pretty desperate at this point since you can't find a court to help you take our seniority.

Driver...

Equal work for equal pay. Yes but you tell us we did not earn it. You did not earn the pay parity. That would be socialist according to you.

So go to the company since the east is in control of usapa and negotiate pay parity if you can.

In your twisted world with a new contract the east gets a much bigger % raise that the west it is OK.
When the east gets 10 days more vacation and the west gets nothing. That is OK.
When the east gets better work rules and the west gets nothing. Taking 90% of the contract to do all those those you are all fine with that. But when a group that wants equal treatment for our retirement. That is not OK.

Selfish, selfish, selfish. Not very good union members.

First off I don't give a crap what you gave back to a BK airline. That is your problem not mine. Don't expect the west to pay for your poor career.

I don't have to make a run at usapa. The APA is going to do that all by themselves.

You better look at the numbers old man.

Anyone hired after March 1998 does not get PBGC money. The west does not get PBGC money. Looking at the bid award there are 2600 east pilots hired before March 1998 that in theory could get a check from the PBGC. There are 1600 west pilots and 900 east pilots that do not get a check.

You all scream about attrition. That means those number are going to shift very quickly. Soon a majority of pilot at US Airways will not be getting a check. That majority could very easily decide that those without, should get equal retirement.

Could be the guys still around get tired of the old guys taking all of the benefits and start to equal up the pie. The new hires will not care what you sacrificed. The west does not care what you gave away. That attrition is a double edged sword for you old guys.

 

[EastUS1]

Equal work for equal pay. Yes but you tell us we did not earn it.

You're nowhere even close to discussing equal work for equal pay, but rather an acquired-over-time benefit....Ummm...just nevermind, since you couldn't, on your best day, even slightly comprehend what the phrase "acquired-over-time" even means Kommissar. 😉

 

[jetjok1]

Wasting time? Are west reps not allowed in your mind to bring things that are important to the BPR? that only east issues are worth of usapa's time? Should have changed that C&BL to reflect your attitude.

It is a good thing that we will have the Nicolau and can move to other bases if you are to be believed about LAX. But you have been saying that PHX was going away for a long time. your crystal ball must be cloudy.

You certainly would not want to see your brother pilots and union members harmed or disadvantaged would you by PHX closing and having nowhere to go.

BTW how is PHX making life hard for the APA? It is east pilots usapa that they are dealing with? Could it be projection that it is you that think life would be easier?

Land grabs are not meaningful things. You've never had a defined benefit plan. You've only had a defined contribution plan. By that mere fact, you don't get or have access to the PBGC. If you want equality for the 401k, by all means, you deserve that. Beyond that, you deserve nothing. You simply haven't been here long enough. Has nothing to do with Los, relative pos., DOH..........you simply have not been here long enough.........end of story

 

[RSVP767]

Equal work for equal pay. Yes but you tell us we did not earn it. You did not earn the pay parity. That would be socialist according to you.

So go to the company since the east is in control of usapa and negotiate pay parity if you can.

In your twisted world with a new contract the east gets a much bigger % raise that the west it is OK.
When the east gets 10 days more vacation and the west gets nothing. That is OK.
When the east gets better work rules and the west gets nothing. Taking 90% of the contract to do all those those you are all fine with that. But when a group that wants equal treatment for our retirement. That is not OK.

Selfish, selfish, selfish. Not very good union members.

First off I don't give a crap what you gave back to a BK airline. That is your problem not mine. Don't expect the west to pay for your poor career.

I don't have to make a run at usapa. The APA is going to do that all by themselves.

You better look at the numbers old man.

Anyone hired after March 1998 does not get PBGC money. The west does not get PBGC money. Looking at the bid award there are 2600 east pilots hired before March 1998 that in theory could get a check from the PBGC. There are 1600 west pilots and 900 east pilots that do not get a check.

You all scream about attrition. That means those number are going to shift very quickly. Soon a majority of pilot at US Airways will not be getting a check. That majority could very easily decide that those without, should get equal retirement.

Could be the guys still around get tired of the old guys taking all of the benefits and start to equal up the pie. The new hires will not care what you sacrificed. The west does not care what you gave away. That attrition is a double edged sword for you old guys.

Unbelievable!!! Are you kidding me? One of these days you really should set aside some time to study for that GED.

Hey, here's one for you......please have your reps run this by the BPR at the next meeting:

WHEREAS many US Airways pilots are currently receiving, or will soon be receiving Military Retirement moneys, AND

WHEREAS not all US Airways pilots are receiving or will receive these retirement moneys,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED THAT all US Airways pilots without Military retirement pensions, (or reduced pension benefits) shall earn retirement benefits similar to the maximum provided by the Military to many US Airways pilots, or an equivalent sum contributed to their 401K accounts.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Demand that your reps include this in their quest for true Retirement parity/equality!

 

[cleardirect]

Land grabs are not meaningful things. You've never had a defined benefit plan. You've only had a defined contribution plan. By that mere fact, you don't get or have access to the PBGC. If you want equality for the 401k, by all means, you deserve that. Beyond that, you deserve nothing. You simply haven't been here long enough. Has nothing to do with Los, relative pos., DOH..........you simply have not been here long enough.........end of story

That is all that resolution said. A contribution to the 401K over time.

What about an east pilot that was hired in March 1998. Has he been here long enough? He does not get a PBGC check. Should he get something?

 

[Claxon]

I think the reality of what is happening in Dallas is crushing in on them and they are coming unglued, firing in all directions, hallucinating, and foaming at the mouth may next be followed by rigamortis.

You nailed it. They do not know whether to sit or go blind. They are just trying to bust your baseballs with the PBGC thing.

cleardirect court of appeals will be accepting recall to the East soon. His parents are tired of his fantasy of damages and wide body flying hopes. What a looser, it is sad.

 

[algflyr]

A single joint agreement. East, west, APA completes the deal. Nicolau implemented and the list going into seniority integration with american.

There is no requirement to meet these 3 items before a merger. There is no requirement that it just be a contract between east and west. It just says. negotiation of the Single Agreement

Are you beginning to understand yet?

You skipped over the part just above what you quoted. I agree, the part you quoted say "the single agreement". If you look, "the single agreement" is defined. Here it is:

--------------
V. Negotiation of a Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Association and the Airline Parties will negotiate a single collective bargaining agreement applicable to the merged operations of America West and US Airways ("the single agreement") as follows:
---------------

So it does say it has to be an agreement between East and West. Also, if you look at the definition of the "Parties", you will notice AMR and the APA seem to be missing...