Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

More reading comprehension problems? I didn't say the east "broke binding arbitration", I said they have thus far refused to accept it via the bargaining agent. Accepting it would be closing out S22 with the NIC and moving to complete the negotiations for the rest of the contract. Of course the only reason USAPA/East haven't broken the Transition Agreement and the NIC that is now contained therein is the fact that Management won't collude with them to do it. It takes two to participate in that violation of the contract in this case, and USAPA stands alone in their desire to not abide by the terms and conditions of the contract.

By refusing to accept the Nicolau, the East pilots have inherently validated the fact the Nic is non binding. Any binding arbitration would not be able to be circumvented other than an award associated with fraud. The Nic is nothing but an award associated with a bargaining agent in the past which was replaced. Replacing that bargaining entity without the Nic memorialized in a contract repudiated its' validity.

 

[Black Swan]

If "internal union" arbitration is not binding. WHY would anyone sign up for it? WHY has every other seniority arbitration used the FINAL and BINDING list? Has every other seniority arbitration made every single pilots happy?

They were bound as they maintained their initial bargaining agent and proceeded into a contract with it and the list that bargaining agent offered into JCBA.

 

[traderjake]

Why did you give up the jumpseat.

Welcome to the minority.

We're not going to get anything APA doesn't have or want.

We need to convince APA that's it's better if everyone is able plan their next commute to work, not just the senior guy.

 

[noDOH4u]

That is exactly right. We are not unsecured creditors in AA's bankruptcy. Too many people are still trying to use this merger to recoup our loses from a decade ago. APA's equity as unsecured creditors is a separate subject from synergies gained from this merger. The synergies are a valid point. APA owns a large part of those synergies IN ADDITION TO their status as unsecured creditors. The value of our synergies and those of APA's is reflected in the MOU and the eventual JCBA. The equity stake APA gets is a reflection of their status as unsecured creditors. It's really that simple.

Now if anyone thinks that the MOU does not compensate us sufficiently for the synergies we bring to the merger, and they think we have the leverage to gain some equity in addition to the MOU, then by all means vote no. But to connect the dots and say we should get equity just because APA got equity is an obfuscation of the facts.

I would love to get more from this. I do not see a viable path to get there. Additionally, even if there was a path and it takes another year, I do not see the net gain being more than what we give up during that time. (ie: the time value of money). We have already lost enough over the past 5 to 7 years chasing a fools errand, following what amounted to false promises of a quick payback. There is no denying that. Those are the grounds for my yes vote. I go to work to be compensated and provide the best quality of life for my family. It is a means to an end. This MOU represents the best opportunity I've seen in a long time to reap some very tangible improvements for everyone during my remaining time here. I'm not willing to gamble that away by rolling the dice one more time, hoping for just a little more. It's time to take my chips and push back from the table. Just like Vegas, it's the constant lure of just one more good hand that results in most people leaving with less than they came with. Gambling is an addiction. Just one more hit.

We all get one vote. I don't see the benefit of arguing about this day after day. And I certainly don't see the need to attack and call people childish names just because you don't like someone's opinion. (...luvthe9)

A well thought out assessment of the situation. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I have a feeling this is the sentiment of the majority at this point. I predict a 75% - 80% yes result.

 

[CallawayGolf]

By refusing to accept the Nicolau, the East pilots have inherently validated the fact the Nic is non binding. Any binding arbitration would not be able to be circumvented other than an award associated with fraud. The Nic is nothing but an award associated with a bargaining agent in the past which was replaced. Replacing that bargaining entity without the Nic memorialized in a contract repudiated its' validity.

So, where's the JCBA and why is Management appealing judge Silver's decision if it is as you say? You did read the multiple warnings to USAPA even in Silver's ruling which is cited as a win for the east, right?

 

[cactusboy53]

By refusing to accept the Nicolau, the East pilots have inherently validated the fact the Nic is non binding. Any binding arbitration would not be able to be circumvented other than an award associated with fraud. The Nic is nothing but an award associated with a bargaining agent in the past which was replaced. Replacing that bargaining entity without the Nic memorialized in a contract repudiated its' validity.

It's more like they have validated the fact that many are the over-reaching, self absorbed prima donnas that we have come to know them to be.

Aren't Mike & Randy's commentary valid any more? Read what former el presidente Mike & VP Randy have to say: "No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts." US Airwaves June/July 2000.

 

[PullUp]

The Oreo was negotiating chair for 5 years, why didn't get us something better?? :huh: :huh: :huh:

Simple reason was the company was not negotiating, they were stalling. Now, they want to negotiate an agreement to further their goals of this merger. It takes two to tango, you know.
I don't know Paul, but I believe that he is very qualified to negotiate in our behalf.
Anybody remember Dubinski at United? The UAL management hated him, and by all accounts the feeling was mutual. But he wound up getting more for the United guys than was thought possible. Dubinski was their 'pitbull' just like I consider Paul to be ours (formerly, unfortunately).
Still voting NO - we can do better.

 

[AAviator]

Did the potential merger perhaps give AA pilots to leverage to go back and get more than they could have absent it? I think so.

Raw US retirements outnumber AA retirements until 2018, for a much smaller pilot group. AA windfall?

In a couple of years an east 320 captain would be making about 50% more than today. Substantial, but not 100%.

And it's y'all. You remember your XXXX stinks too.

When those LCC retirements occur, it has been suggested there will a fence in place.. correct? 2018 is less than 5 years from now right?

Who benefits (behind the fence) from the LCC retirements? It ain't the APA pilots..

Starting in 2018, post the supposed fence, AA retirements start outpacing LCC's at a rapid clip... So who benefits there? It ain't the AA pilots...

Unless you're up for some public math Pi Brat, have a look again at what an LCC pilot makes (+10% retirement contribution), vs. PUBLISHED MOU rates (+16% retirement)..

I'll admit I was wrong.. It;s not 100%. Its more.

 

[AAviator]

You've stated that you're against this merger, so it certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

Yea if it weren't for AA all you guys would be doing is flinging poo at each other because..


Oh wait a minute...








Nevermind!

 

[AAviator]

An injunction will not stop a merger. An injunction would stop Parker from putting the pilot groups together. That is where the value is. That is what he needs to do quickly.

An injunction cost Parker. Not using the Nicolau costs Parker money.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, I know as an AA pilot I would likely fare better without the NIC.





But there's this thing called reality.....

 

[AAviator]

No, WE ALL LOSE. Thanks to all the bed wetters.

Just my morbid sense of curiosity here, but what were.are you trying to win?

 

[AAviator]

sorry guys, I'm back on page 418.. gonna take a while to catch up.....

 

[BLT]

"No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts." US Airwaves June/July 2000.

That's because no pilot union has ever been as smart or cunning as USAPA. Remember they are going to get us an industry leading, DOH contract in 3 months! They just never said when that 3 months is going to start. But when it does, you better watch out. USAPA will bring the hammer down and extract so much money from Doug Parker his wallet will turn inside out. Keep the faith gentleman. Just a few more years of the worst wages in the history of aviation and then we will be on top where we belong! You will retire at the pinnacle of your career! As long as you are currently under the age of 55.

 

[AAviator]

Please try to get this. This comes from the APA and the NAC.

1 Pilot data consisting of DOH, longevity, seat position, etc is exchanged between pilot groups. The order of the pilots in the data being exchanged is irrelevant.

2 Each union then takes the other unions DATA (not list) and then orders it and integrates it into their own list.

3 Each union then comes back to the table and exchanges their respective lists. They will differ from one another because of differing priorities in their methodology for integration. We, obviously, are looking for a DOH list. They're looking for a slotting-type list.

4 Then each side will try to meet in the middle with their methodology. That will fail.

5 Arbitration.

IMHO, the APA will take our data and order it in accordance to the Nicolau award and then slot us into their list. Again, IMHO, it'll be done to avoid any potential litigation.
DOH won't work on our end. It failed miserably before and it will fail again. The last few mergers have proven this.

Help me out here...

USAPA will/can take the APA list and give the ex TWA pilots their DOH at TWA on the combined list?

Are you suggesting the USAPA can modify the current APA seniority list?

 

[Pi brat]

When those LCC retirements occur, it has been suggested there will a fence in place.. correct? 2018 is less than 5 years from now right?

Who benefits (behind the fence) from the LCC retirements? It ain't the APA pilots..

Starting in 2018, post the supposed fence, AA retirements start outpacing LCC's at a rapid clip... So who benefits there? It ain't the AA pilots...

Unless you're up for some public math Pi Brat, have a look again at what an LCC pilot makes (+10% retirement contribution), vs. PUBLISHED MOU rates (+16% retirement)..

I'll admit I was wrong.. It;s not 100%. Its more.

Well, first of all, fences aren't guaranteed. We didn't get any with AWA.

Next. it's funny how you didn't comment on how the potential merger with US boosted your power to get more from AA.

Finally, you will have to revive your claim from last week. What did you say then? Then whip some of that public school math on me, I think you're wrong.

Most AA pilots aren't tools like you, are they?