Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

M/B does not required arbitration but usapa has boxed yourselves in and left no choice.

Usapa has a single negotiating position. DOH. When the APA rejects that negotiations are over and arbitration belongs.

Usapa will not be collecting dues. The APA will. The APA will be the union and the APA will the one to submit the list.

BTW in order to get to SCOTUS you have to survive the motion to dismiss at the district level.

You know perfectly well that USAPA is allowed to hold whatever SLI bargaining position it wants to within a wide range of reasonableness (especially if everyone votes for M/B), and no one can prevent them, but anyone can sue them once a JCBA is reached. A trip to SCOTUS is free if you are collecting dues, or if you don't exist.

 

[Metroyet]

USAPA can't negotiate?

Not without amending the C&BL's. Don't like election results? Change the rules! Don't like Arbitration? Change your name! You guys are pathetic.

 

[Claxon]

Wait!

The entire premise of usapa is that you can do whatever you want, negotiate for any seniority list you want. But the APA can't?

Are you saying that usapa is wrong?

Now you say the west has rights?

What else has usapa been saying? That the new union can ignore whatever the last union did or wanted. So if the APA decides to use the arbitratedand accepted list and ignore the DOH provision in the expelled unions C&BL they can do that correct?

Yes M/B was created because the APA stapled TWA to the bottom of their list just like usapa is trying to do to the west. M/B only allows what the TWA pilots did not get. Arbitration. M/B does not require a specific method of integration. Doh is not specified so dont get your hopes up for that again. The arbitrator can use whatever method he thinks is fair. Fair being defined as was the process followed.

Karma is a ####.

The APA will be our new union and the APA does not have a singular obsession with harming the west and getting DOH. Your new union will submit the list with the least liability, cost and hassle. That would be the Nicolau.

Do you think that M/B prevents the APA from submitting the arbitrated Nicolau list?

The east is going to find out the meaning of majority rules. If you don't like it I suggest the creation of a LLC and start collecting money. Maybe some of the Leonidas people can consult with you, for a rather large fee on how to do that.

You never understood the Nicolau was merely a proposal. You never got it wasn't a Federal Arbitration. You never got it that it wasn't final and binding, even when it is seven years later. You never understood the difference of an arbitration between an employer and an employee and in internal union arbitration. Getting clearer now? Day by day, you are dragged to the precipice. You and the other blind mouse Metroyet. Pretty soon you will go over, and the APA will help you over the edge. It is what they do best. Your blind greed is your master. Soon it will seal your fate.

 

[Phoenix]

Not without amending the C&BL's. Don't like election results? Change the rules! Don't like Arbitration? Change your name! You guys are pathetic.

Who is going to be dumb enough to sue USAPA for exercising its right to bargain within a wide range of reasonableness? Some people have been paying attention.

 

[Metroyet]

You never understood the Nicolau was merely a proposal. You never got it wasn't a Federal Arbitration. You never got it that it wasn't final and binding, even when it is seven years later. You never understood the difference of an arbitration between an employer and an employee and in internal union arbitration. Getting clearer now? Day by day, you are dragged to the precipice. You and the other blind mouse Metroyet. Pretty soon you will go over, and the APA will help you over the edge. It is what they do best. Your blind greed is your master. Soon it will seal your fate.

HA! Ok. Just remember that an arbitration is powerful evidence of a fair result and abandoning it puts you scabs on dangerous ground. Also recall the scant 90 minutes it took a neutral jury of your peers to convict your fake union. I know you're to crazy to get all of this but the company and the APA isn't. Also, don't forget that the TA is clearly binding and you need an LUP, and agreement from the company to change it. You have neither and never will.

 

[cleardirect]

USAPA can't negotiate?

Five years of history has proven usapa does not have the ability to negotiate.

 

[Piedmont1984]

What is the difference between ALPA merger policy and A/M merger policy?

Both say negotiate if you can. Usapa can't.
Both say arbitrate for a final and binding result.
Neither state a method of integration.

So what is the difference?

One is federal law. The other one was not.
One will have a panel sharing equal votes. The other did not.
One will rely on precedent set in A/M (Alegheny Mohawk sp?) and give due consideration to DOH and longevity. The other has since re-introduced this metric, but it was conspicuously missing in 2007.

 

[cleardirect]

You know perfectly well that USAPA is allowed to hold whatever SLI bargaining position it wants to within a wide range of reasonableness (especially if everyone votes for M/B), and no one can prevent them, but anyone can sue them once a JCBA is reached. A trip to SCOTUS is free if you are collecting dues, or if you don't exist.

There is no voting on M/B.

Usapa if they have a LUP could negotiate if usapa had anyone to negotiate with or had the ability to negotiate. The company is not going to negotiate, the company is doing a merger.

But the APA is going to be the union not usapa. A joint contract is going to be done before seniority arbitration.

Usapa will not be collecting dues when we get to seniority arbitration. A trip to SCOTUS is NEVER free. Like I said you can't get to SCOTUS if your case is dismissed at the district level.

The APA is going to be the union. The APA will submit the Nicolau list and the APA will be collecting dues. If some east pilots would like to start an LLC and file suit go for it. But you will also be paying dues to APA to defend against that law suit.

 

[cleardirect]

One is federal law. The other one was not.
One will have a panel sharing equal votes. The other did not.
One will rely on precedent set in A/M (Alegheny Mohawk sp?) and give due consideration to DOH and longevity. The other has since re-introduced this metric, but it was conspicuously missing in 2007.

Where does it say that it will be a panel of arbitrators?
M/B has already been tested once. The precedent is ratio. Frontier/ republic. So if the arbitrator is going to use precedent it will be ratios.

Btw Nicolau did give due consideration to DOH and longevity. He decided that it did not carry the weight you wished it would.

What are you going to do or who are you going to blame when under federal law and M/B you don't get DOH and only two lists are used?

 

[prechilill]

Not without amending the C&BL's. Don't like election results? Change the rules! Don't like Arbitration? Change your name! You guys are pathetic.

It's reached a pandemic out east, anything is being offered up now to "keep the dream alive" regardless of how preposterous the ideas are.
KV thinks a final and binding arbitration doesn't exist because its not MB- never mind the fact that MB never existed at the time of the AWA/US SLI.
These guys are do desperate now that the obvious is upon us: a JCBA. I guess KV missed the statement by Silver "disregarding an arbitrated decision places USAPA on dangerous ground".

Bottom line: the east is short circuiting and we are seeing it first hand. Just wait, there is a lot more entertainment to come!

 

[Ames]

You never understood the Nicolau was merely a proposal. You never got it wasn't a Federal Arbitration. You never got it that it wasn't final and binding, even when it is seven years later. You never understood the difference of an arbitration between an employer and an employee and in internal union arbitration. Getting clearer now? Day by day, you are dragged to the precipice. You and the other blind mouse Metroyet. Pretty soon you will go over, and the APA will help you over the edge. It is what they do best. Your blind greed is your master. Soon it will seal your fate.

We will very soon see if these "words of wisdom" are true or absolute BS. Any wagers?

 

[Phoenix]

There is no voting on M/B.

Usapa if they have a LUP could negotiate if usapa had anyone to negotiate with or had the ability to negotiate. The company is not going to negotiate, the company is doing a merger.

But the APA is going to be the union not usapa. A joint contract is going to be done before seniority arbitration.

Usapa will not be collecting dues when we get to seniority arbitration. A trip to SCOTUS is NEVER free. Like I said you can't get to SCOTUS if your case is dismissed at the district level.

The APA is going to be the union. The APA will submit the Nicolau list and the APA will be collecting dues. If some east pilots would like to start an LLC and file suit go for it. But you will also be paying dues to APA to defend against that law suit.

Wow that sounds really complicated, but if all your assumptions are true and it all happens exactly like that then you should be sitting left seat 777 by the fall.

But if we vote on M/B in an MOU...
Or if M/B prevents a single union from unilaterally deciding seniority...
Or if M/B prevents a single union from unilaterally presenting a single argument to an arbitrator...
Or if unions are allowed to operate within a wide range of reasonableness and courts don't interfere or even allow lawsuits to be ripe until after a JCBA is ratified...

A trip to the SCOTUS is free if you are collecting dues, or if you don't exist.

 

[700UW]

You dont vote on a law. The law was voted on by Congress and signed by the President.

It sets up a procedure that must be followed.

You cant pick and choose to ignore a Federal Law.

 

[Phoenix]

You dont vote on a law. The law was voted on by Congress and signed by the President.

It sets up a procedure that must be followed.

You cant pick and choose to ignore a Federal Law.

M/B doesn't deny parties the right to willfully choose an alternate method.

You vote on an MOU. And if the parties agree that the MOU chooses M/B rather than an alternative, then the parties have indeed voted for M/B, as opposed to an alternative.

 

[fatherabraham]

Question to Cleardirect:

Do you favor stapling the furloughed APA pilots to the bottem of the list?

CD reply:

Yes.

Do you favor stapling all the us airways new hires below APA furloughed pilots?


My thoughts:

I believe the just thing to do is have a furlough return at first opening and slot in at YOS completed. In fact, I would lean more toward slotting them back with their original doh then your pathetic stapling. Even to my own disadvantage , that would be the integrity thingy you awa folk talk bout.

FA