Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Bill Brasky]

The next generation won't recognize the term "DOH" since it effectively died in mergers about two decades ago Bobby.

All the best!

Yea, the ones that worked.

 

[Portly Dorman]

Please avoid the facts, it just muddies the water.

All they have to say is 'we're not the airline in BK', yeah, that's the ticket.

1988 AA hire is a 767 captain
1988 east hire is a 320 fo

1988 AA hire is in the top 20% of the seniority list
1988 east hire is in the bottom 30% of the seniority list

DOH?

Talk amongst yourselves...

 

[EastUS1]

All they have to say is 'we're not the airline in BK', yeah, that's the ticket.

"Shirley" you can't now be suggesting that the very "logic" for your wondrous nic's entirely absurd, can you?

 

[JoeFL77]

DOH dead? Every union uses DOH except pilots. When you want to do something different, you are making things up. I am special because of this and that so I deserve special treatment.

Did they upgrade because they were outstanding aviators and leaders? Was there a competitive selection board and they were selected over less outstanding pilots. No, they were select by how long they had been at the company.

This is why ALPA, the pilot union, was founded by Dave Behncke. It was DOH for decades before we became brilliant and special. That is why we are now USAPA and not ALPA.

That 1988 East pilot was a captain at one time. Then the numbers changed. He didn't work any harder or less harder than a West or a AA pilot. So now we are joining companies. The numbers are changing again. We have special people again who want to make things up.

This NIC is legal. Maybe yes, maybe no. I believe it is incorrect. Career expectations versus reality. We now have the ability to see it the career expectations were correct. The East 1988 hire that was on the E170 is now an A330 FO or a E190 Capt. The West new hire of 6 months that was put ahead of him is furloughed. There has been no mixing of the fleet or passengers. This is with the West flying a net of 20% of East passenger.

The NIC being "law" and having to follow it is questionable. History is full of unjust laws and those being resisted and changed. Some examples from history are the American Revolution, slavery in the US, and the killing of the Jews in Germany. All perfectly legal but wrong.

I am a simple man. I work hard, fly safe, and enjoy life. I am nobody special. I'll stick with DOH and the NIC is wrong on many level.

I would write more but it is oil change day at my house and I have only a few hours to do them before I go to work.

JoeFL77

 

[Crzipilot]

Interesting, had a AA guy the other day, '86 hire I believe. 767 FO. Said he was going to stay as f/o for awhile. Think he said Jr. Capt. was '88 or '89 hire on the MD80 out of JFK. Said bottom rsv out of JFK wasn't a very desirable position, Hence why it went Jr. Look at Positions by bases and hire dates. Then you might see what the real seniority holds over there.

They have more than two bases, With more than two types of airplanes, resulting in different types of QOL etc.....so it's not as simple as having to choose between PHX or LAS.......

Simply saying a '88 hire is a 76 capt. is a tad misleading I'm sure of the makeup of the seniority situation at AA.......but then I could be wrong.

 

[Res Judicata]

Talk about delusional! You do understand the legal concept of Ripeness, don't you?


seajay

As in the MOU being a JCBA for the us air pilots...that was RATIFIED? Ever wonder why the us air pilots had to VOTE for the MOU and the APA didn't?

 

[Pi brat]

As in the MOU being a JCBA for the us air pilots...that was RATIFIED? Ever wonder why the us air pilots had to VOTE for the MOU and the APA didn't?

Because their C&BLs didn't require a vote?

The MOU is not a JCBA. That is to come. I see it as more of a LOA.

 

[nic4us]

Because their C&BLs didn't require a vote?

The MOU is not a JCBA. That is to come. I see it as more of a LOA.

What did you think of Lincoln?

 

[cleardirect]

In all probability there will be fencing. With attrition at, say 5 years, how do the numbers match up?
Cheers.

OMG! Attrition is not the answer to every seniority question.

Fences are only going to be for the wide bodies and guess what US Airways does not have that many. That means that US Airways will be fenced off the AA WB. That does not mean the west is fenced off the US airways WB.

The AA pilots have their own attrition. Nicolau looked at attrition and gave it the value it deserved. The next arbitrator will do the same thing. But just like CoC attrition does not have the value you think it has.

 

[Pi brat]

What did you think of Lincoln?

What did you think of Lincoln?

That we could use a man like that around here!

 

[flyer63]

1988 AA hire is a 767 captain
1988 east hire is a 320 fo

1988 AA hire is in the top 20% of the seniority list
1988 east hire is in the bottom 30% of the seniority list

DOH?

Talk amongst yourselves...

Last bid had east 88 hire in DCA on little bus capt position. This next bid will be even better. This is the crux of the problem with the NIC. Attrition to its rightful owner who has put in the time and patiently waited. We want noting of your PHX base. So move along

 

[CallawayGolf]

I'm starting to get this image in my mind of a few elderly AOL supporters, sitting around in their wheelchairs, at some assisted living center in Arizona, mumbling over and over essentially unintelligible drivel, having something to do, with a NIC. To which the staff responds by wheeling them off for their much needed colon cleaning's.

Might make a really funny SNL skit also. I remember them doing one about dismantling the set of the TV show "Startrek", as the stage crew is carting off all the prop scenery, the "Cast" is shouting orders to the crew to repel the ongoing "Klingon" attack, the scene then cuts to the "Cast" being carted off in straight jackets, still calling for the "Shields Up and Phasers ON"!


seajay

I remember that skit as well. I think the prop department commandeered Spock’s Vulcan ears before he was carried off. The show was much funnier back then than it has been over the past couple of decades. Still, I fail to see the analogy connecting that skit to my post.
Bill Brasky said this…

I don't know what she meant by that. Especially since she said that USAPA was free to negotiate any SLI they wished, and if they had a LUP (and we know there is), there was no DFR. She may as well have just told you to give it up, it's over. Go cry to mommy.

My post was to proffer a reasoned hypothesis as to why Silver offered the multiple warnings to USAPA in her final ruling. She admitted, by way of reversing her previous position of allowing the DJ to go forward because the Company did in fact face legal and financial harm if they accepted USAPA’s non-NIC list, that she felt boxed in by the Ninth’s ruling on ripeness. Thus she re-aligned her official opinion to line up with the Ninth’s ruling on USAPA’s freedom to negotiate within the context of a LUP. So, Silver along with Tashima and Graber made a legal determination that the federal courts lacked any jurisdictional authority to grant relief to the dispute over the NIC. In their views the court is barred from interfering until such time when an unquestionably ripe claim of harm can be made against USAPA and perhaps the Company.

Still, Silver was very much aware of the fact that USAPA was found to have violated their DFR in Addington and that Bybee had dissented from Tashima and Graber on the ripeness issue and went on to not only dissent on the determination of ripeness, but made an extremely compelling argument based on the merits of the case as to why USAPA had in fact violated their DFR just as the lower court had ruled. Silver knows, as evidenced by the warnings in her final opinion, that should USAPA ever make the west claim ripe, the use of a non-NIC list would bring legal harm to both them and the Company as it had already been determined by the only two federal judges who looked past ripeness and into the actual merits of the west claim.

 

[cleardirect]

Interesting, had a AA guy the other day, '86 hire I believe. 767 FO. Said he was going to stay as f/o for awhile. Think he said Jr. Capt. was '88 or '89 hire on the MD80 out of JFK. Said bottom rsv out of JFK wasn't a very desirable position, Hence why it went Jr. Look at Positions by bases and hire dates. Then you might see what the real seniority holds over there.

They have more than two bases, With more than two types of airplanes, resulting in different types of QOL etc.....so it's not as simple as having to choose between PHX or LAS.......

Simply saying a '88 hire is a 76 capt. is a tad misleading I'm sure of the makeup of the seniority situation at AA.......but then I could be wrong.

From pilot central

Most junior captain hired: Mar 1992 (MD80/LGA)

Not 88-89

People make bidding choices for different reasons I think we all understand that. But that does not change the fact that a DOH list does not match up at all with the reality of SENIORITY. At AA an 88 hired is much more senior than an 88 hire on the east.

A 1988 hire at american 31% on the seniority list.
A 1988 hire on the east 69% on the seniority list. A 1988 east pilots was furloughed at the time of the merger.
A 1988 hire on the west 15% on the seniority list.

Does anyone think that an arbitrator is going to take a junior 76 captain from AA, a very senior west captain and a mid level east F/O and place them next to each other on a combined seniority list? Better think again.

And no attrition does make make everything equal.

 

[Bill Brasky]

I remember that skit as well. I think the prop department commandeered Spock’s Vulcan ears before he was carried off. The show was much funnier back then than it has been over the past couple of decades. Still, I fail to see the analogy connecting that skit to my post.
Bill Brasky said this…

My post was to proffer a reasoned hypothesis as to why Silver offered the multiple warnings to USAPA in her final ruling. She admitted, by way of reversing her previous position of allowing the DJ to go forward because the Company did in fact face legal and financial harm if they accepted USAPA’s non-NIC list, that she felt boxed in by the Ninth’s ruling on ripeness. Thus she re-aligned her official opinion to line up with the Ninth’s ruling on USAPA’s freedom to negotiate within the context of a LUP. So, Silver along with Tashima and Graber made a legal determination that the federal courts lacked any jurisdictional authority to grant relief to the dispute over the NIC. In their views the court is barred from interfering until such time when an unquestionably ripe claim of harm can be made against USAPA and perhaps the Company.

Still, Silver was very much aware of the fact that USAPA was found to have violated their DFR in Addington and that Bybee had dissented from Tashima and Graber on the ripeness issue and went on to not only dissent on the determination of ripeness, but made an extremely compelling argument based on the merits of the case as to why USAPA had in fact violated their DFR just as the lower court had ruled. Silver knows, as evidenced by the warnings in her final opinion, that should USAPA ever make the west claim ripe, the use of a non-NIC list would bring legal harm to both them and the Company as it had already been determined by the only two federal judges who looked past ripeness and into the actual merits of the west claim.

Judge Silver's ruling was clear; USAPA is free to negotiate any SLI they wish, as long as it has a LUP, which its DOH with C&R plan does. All your drivel about dismissed cases and minority positions mean nothing, they have NO standing in a court of law.

Judge Silver even amended the order to make clear that it covered all the westies, not just the six or so named in the complaint. She had a chance to change what she said, and only made it more restrictive.

If your lawyers are telling you anything else, they're just stealing your money.

 

[cleardirect]

Last bid had east 88 hire in DCA on little bus capt position. This next bid will be even better. This is the crux of the problem with the NIC. Attrition to its rightful owner who has put in the time and patiently waited. We want noting of your PHX base. So move along

You may not want nothing of the PHX base but you certainly want the airplanes we brought. You want the west to sit reserve and work weekends and holidays. You want the west to be furlough fodder.

You need to understand there was a merger and there is probably going to be another merger. That does not mean you get to sit in CLT, PHL and DCA gain all the benefits of this merger while the west pays the price. The AA pilots are coming and they are not going into a merger saying you stay over there and we will stay over here.