Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cactusboy53]

Judge Silver's ruling was clear; USAPA is free to negotiate any SLI they wish, as long as it has a LUP, which its DOH with C&R plan does. All your drivel about dismissed cases and minority positions mean nothing, they have NO standing in a court of law.

Judge Silver even amended the order to make clear that it covered all the westies, not just the six or so named in the complaint. She had a chance to change what she said, and only made it more restrictive.

If your lawyers are telling you anything else, they're just stealing your money.

Look Billy;
We don't mind if you quote Judge Silver (or the Ninth), BUT you really can't cherry pick the portions of the order that serves your DOH land grab. Here is EXACTLY what Judge silver said in the order:

Having reviewed all of the filings and considered the arguments made by
counsel at the oral argument, the Court concludes Defendant US Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA&rdquo😉 is free to pursue any seniority position it wishes during the collective bargaining negotiations. But with that freedom comes risk because the West Pilot Defendants may have viable legal claims in the future should the collective bargaining agreement contain a seniority provision harmful to a subsection of the union. As for US Airways, it must negotiate with USAPA and it need not insist on any particular seniority regime. But US Airways must evaluate any proposal by USAPA with some care to ensure that it is reasonable and supported by a legitimate union purpose.

She also said the following is the "DISCUSSION" section of the order:

Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.

The above is taken directly from Judge Silver's Order (Document 193) dated 11 October 2012.

Don't type angry Billy, no cherry pickin' going on here!! CB

 

[Beancounter]

First of all, what makes you think this is going to an arbitrator? secondly, how do you have a clue what an arbitrator may or may not do? More brainless crap from a westie. Secondly, I've seen both lists and the combined DOH list that some APA built. It actually looks pretty workable. Not quite there, but a lot closer than the Nic would be.

Doesn't matter, Nic ain't happening.

Merging ex AWA pilots and US pilots using DOH isn't fair and you darn well know it. Why else would you be hoping it doesn't go to arbitration? I'll tell you why, because you know there isn't an arbitrator out there that would staple the west to the bottom of your list. The company lawyer may not have been politically correct when he let the DOH comment slip, but he was absolutely right. How much damage and harm are you going to do to the west, yourself, and the company before you give up your quest to staple the west pilots?

Bean

 

[nic4us]

Speaking of predictions,

I predict the merger will be announced tomorrow in the KTUL maintenade hangar where we recently saw the unveiling of the new paint scheme!

 

[cleardirect]

First of all, what makes you think this is going to an arbitrator? secondly, how do you have a clue what an arbitrator may or may not do? More brainless crap from a westie. Secondly, I've seen both lists and the combined DOH list that some APA built. It actually looks pretty workable. Not quite there, but a lot closer than the Nic would be.

Doesn't matter, Nic ain't happening.

Workable in your opinion. But we know about what you think is fair and workable.

So you think that the top 2500 (71%) of the east in the top 5000 slots combined is workable for the APA?

Good luck with that.

Putting 6500 american and only 500 east in the bottom 7000 is workable?

Good luck with that.

By DOH because the east did not hire for 7 years. You think that an arbitrator will run an unbroken string of 2000 american pilots on a combined seniority list and that is workable.

Good luck with that.

Yes it is going to arbitration. usapa because of it's hard headed and unyielding obsession with DOH has made it constitutionally impossible to negotiate a seniority list. As soon as the APA rejects DOH usapa can't negotiate any more otherwise it violates your precious C&BL.

 

[Beancounter]

Speaking of predictions,

I predict the merger will be announced tomorrow in the KTUL maintenade hangar where we recently saw the unveiling of the new paint scheme!

I vote for Valentine's Day, but mergers often are announced on Fridays.

Bean

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I vote for Valentine's Day, but mergers often are announced on Fridays.

Bean

I too vote for Valentine's Day. Then all the media can put little hearts between all the logos and airplane pictures! And headlines that will make us all groan.

Greeter

 

[CallawayGolf]

And when you are wrong about your other predictions it will also be because THEY changed, not your faulty logic.

What other predictions was I wrong on? I predicted USAPA would lose the LOA93 grievance and was correct; I predicted that USAPA would lose both status quo law suits in CLT and NY and was correct. Those were all based on an objective review of the information I had available to me at the time, not some prescient view of the future.

Are you suggesting that Silver didn't first say the Company's DJ claim was ripe and would not be dismissed even light of the Ninth's ruling on Addington and then come back later and say that a determination cannot be made until the contract is ratified? She clearly said the Company was entitled to relief and then said that her ruling places US Airways in a difficult position - the very thing they had asked her to relieve them from.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Look Billy;
We don't mind if you quote Judge Silver (or the Ninth), BUT you really can't cherry pick the portions of the order that serves your DOH land grab. Here is EXACTLY what Judge silver said in the order:

Having reviewed all of the filings and considered the arguments made by
counsel at the oral argument, the Court concludes Defendant US Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA&rdquo😉 is free to pursue any seniority position it wishes during the collective bargaining negotiations. But with that freedom comes risk because the West Pilot Defendants may have viable legal claims in the future should the collective bargaining agreement contain a seniority provision harmful to a subsection of the union. As for US Airways, it must negotiate with USAPA and it need not insist on any particular seniority regime. But US Airways must evaluate any proposal by USAPA with some care to ensure that it is reasonable and supported by a legitimate union purpose.

She also said the following is the "DISCUSSION" section of the order:

Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.

The above is taken directly from Judge Silver's Order (Document 193) dated 11 October 2012.

Don't type angry Billy, no cherry pickin' going on here!! CB

Look, David. The order found for USAPA on Count 2.

The "dicta", if you know what that means, doesn't support yours or Harpers position regarding the evidence.

If this ever goes to trial in "DFR II", I can legally predict that law law will not support your complaint for TWO reasons:

The MOU has superceded the seniority issue, supported by the FACT of an overwhelming West vote and secondly,

the "DFR II" will probably NOT have a jury trial, but even if it did, the "evidence" will be readmitted and a WHOLE NEW TRIAL will take place. You will NOT be able to "reuse" the Wake statments NOR Judge Silvers order, except maybe as evidentiary documents, but I believe a Motion in Limine will cure that argument on behalf of the powers that be.

None of us are afraid of your DFR. Wait until the newly constituted BPR gets into office. You can keep Pete and Joe.

 

[Pi brat]

What other predictions was I wrong on? I predicted USAPA would lose the LOA93 grievance and was correct; I predicted that USAPA would lose both status quo law suits in CLT and NY and was correct. Those were all based on an objective review of the information I had available to me at the time, not some prescient view of the future.

Are you suggesting that Silver didn't first say the Company's DJ claim was ripe and would not be dismissed even light of the Ninth's ruling on Addington and then come back later and say that a determination cannot be made until the contract is ratified? She clearly said the Company was entitled to relief and then said that her ruling places US Airways in a difficult position - the very thing they had asked her to relieve them from.

If you will read what I quoted again you will see that is says WHEN you are wrong again.

It's your arrogance that irritates me. You read the tea leaves of what she said publicly and made a prediction of the "only logical verdict.' You didn't have all the information. Even if you slept with her I doubt you would. The information she got outside of the court room, what her clerks pointed out to her etc. Like some many on here, you took fragments of information and came to a faulty conclusion.

 

[Beancounter]

Look, David. The order found for USAPA on Count 2.

The "dicta", if you know what that means, doesn't support yours or Harpers position regarding the evidence.

If this ever goes to trial in "DFR II", I can legally predict that law law will not support your complaint for TWO reasons:

The MOU has superceded the seniority issue, supported by the FACT of an overwhelming West vote and secondly,

the "DFR II" will probably NOT have a jury trial, but even if it did, the "evidence" will be readmitted and a WHOLE NEW TRIAL will take place. You will NOT be able to "reuse" the Wake statments NOR Judge Silvers order, except maybe as evidentiary documents, but I believe a Motion in Limine will cure that argument on behalf of the powers that be.

None of us are afraid of your DFR. Wait until the newly constituted BPR gets into office. You can keep Pete and Joe.

First off, I thought the MOU didn't address seniority???

Secondly, I'm supposed to be afraid of the new BPR? We've already seen what that brain trust is capable of. They couldn't find their own @$$es with both hands and a map. This should be good for a few laughs though.
I'd be worried if they were representing me, but we both know they aren't. Ahhhhh, more DFR fuel. Don't step out of the way of that speeding truck, just stand there looking at the pretty lights while you chant, "DOH."

Bean

 

[Walmartgreeter]

End of Alpa just said: "None of us are afraid of your DFR. Wait until the newly constituted BPR gets into office. You can keep Pete and Joe. "
"Victory is INDEED mine!"

Your rooster is crowing a little early.

Sgt. to his men: "Everyone who still has a mother that is alive, one step forward....NOT SO FAST Kawalski!"

Greeter

 

[usabusdriver]

Because absent the MOU and the merger we would not even be in SLI.

Yes, the MOU is only effective if the merger happens, but if it does, then the LCC pilots are on the MOU rates and benefits.

If you are saying that the APA would argue that the only reason the LCC pilots are here and on those rates is because of the merger, well that would be a true statement. The simple response to that would be, of course that holds true for the APA as well.

But that would not be factual. The APA 2012 CBA, which the MOU is based on, is in effect regardless of a merger.

 

[traderjake]

Wait until the newly constituted BPR gets into office. You can keep Pete and Joe.

With guys like Paul "DOH or death" Music controlling the BPR APA is going to clean our clocks.

 

[Claxon]

What other predictions was I wrong on? I predicted USAPA would lose the LOA93 grievance and was correct; I predicted that USAPA would lose both status quo law suits in CLT and NY and was correct. Those were all based on an objective review of the information I had available to me at the time, not some prescient view of the future.

Are you suggesting that Silver didn't first say the Company's DJ claim was ripe and would not be dismissed even light of the Ninth's ruling on Addington and then come back later and say that a determination cannot be made until the contract is ratified? She clearly said the Company was entitled to relief and then said that her ruling places US Airways in a difficult position - the very thing they had asked her to relieve them from.

And you totally blew Addington and the 9th. Your track record is specious at best.

 

[3dtv]

Look, David. The order found for USAPA on Count 2.

The "dicta", if you know what that means, doesn't support yours or Harpers position regarding the evidence.

If this ever goes to trial in "DFR II", I can legally predict that law law will not support your complaint for TWO reasons:

The MOU has superceded the seniority issue, supported by the FACT of an overwhelming West vote and secondly,

the "DFR II" will probably NOT have a jury trial, but even if it did, the "evidence" will be readmitted and a WHOLE NEW TRIAL will take place. You will NOT be able to "reuse" the Wake statments NOR Judge Silvers order, except maybe as evidentiary documents, but I believe a Motion in Limine will cure that argument on behalf of the powers that be.

None of us are afraid of your DFR. Wait until the newly constituted BPR gets into office. You can keep Pete and Joe.

So sad you are so misguided JJ. They kept your narcicists from playing right into the Greek army's plans and more court.

Your new BPR isn't as dumb as the old hard liners and won't be allowed by legal to be suicidal now in the end on the brink of victory.