Delta Labor Relations thread.

[700UW]

  

IAM spearheaded the demise of EAL by, believing people loading bags on aircraft should be making the same as the people maintaining them.
Once again I will take the word of people who were actually there vs. an IAM pimp


No but, the IAM is still the IAM!

 
 

Pal, Eastern was going down, BEFORE Lorenzo and because of UNIONS!

Here let me post this again since you conveniently forgot to answer this:
 
So answer this southwind, why was Frank Lorenzo removed from EA and CO, and banned permanently from ever working, owning or having anything do with an airline and yet the IAM, ALPA and the TWU who represented the employees at EA are allowed to still be in the industry?
 
Answer this too Southwind who was Lorenzo's lawyer at the time?

 

[WeAAsles]

  

IAM spearheaded the demise of EAL by, believing people loading bags on aircraft should be making the same as the people maintaining them.
Once again I will take the word of people who were actually there vs. an IAM pimp


No but, the IAM is still the IAM!

 
The union says Eastern mechanics earn a top wage of $16.83 an hour, as against $16 to $20.10 at other major airlines, while ramp service workers earn a top wage of $15.60 an hour, as against $15.51 to $17.45 at Eastern's competitors. The union said 92 percent of the mechanics and 86 percent of the ramp workers are men. THE WALKOUT AT EASTERN
 
The union representing Eastern's machinists went on strike at 12:01 A.M. yesterday after a Federally imposed cooling-off period expired. Issues: Eastern, which says it lost $1 billion in the past decade and is losing more than $1 million a day, is seeking $125 million a year in wage concessions. The machinists have been seeking $50 million in raises, but offered on Friday to delay any increases for 15 months. The two sides are also negotiating over work-rule changes and cuts in benefits. Eastern is also seeking a new contract with the pilots, which has become an issue because most pilots refused to cross the machinists' picket line. In its proposal to the pilots, Eastern is calling for many work rule changes but is guaranteeing jobs and some raises. Pilots want firmer assurances about Eastern's survival and oppose many of the work rule changes. Two years ago flight attendants and pilots accepted wage cuts averaging 20 percent but machinists got 8 percent increases. Headquarters: Miami Employees: 31,200, including 8,500 members of the machinists' union, which includes mechanics, bag handlers and other ground workers; 3,500 pilots, and 5,900 flight attendants. Size of the fleet: 250 jets, with 30 flying yesterday. Cities normally served: 118, with its major markets in South Florida, the Caribbean, the East Coast and Latin America. Yesterday's limited service was concentrated on the airline's top markets: Atlanta, Boston, Miami, New York, Washington. Number of flights: The bulk of 1,040 daily flights were canceled.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/03/05/us/mechanics-strike-virtually-shuts-eastern-airlines.html

Alright so let me see if I can understand your perspective or what you know or have been told about what was going on back in 1989? I highlighted two areas because I have questions on those. According to the article you're right and ACS, Fleet was making close to what Mechanics at Eastern were making. The IAM represented both groups. But it looks to me that at Eastern and other competitors the difference in pay between $1.00 and $3.00 was standard at that time? My guess is that you blame ALL the Unions for that? Why were the wages so close? How long before 1989 was that going on? Did that also exist at Delta?

Now for the second part. Why did other groups take a 20% pay-cut where "machinists" got 8% increases? Were Mechanics also part of that 8% increase? If other groups sacrificed and machinists didn't why would they join them in striking the airline? You would have to figure that other groups would be pissed off that the IAM didn't share the sacrifice and say screw them? Just doesn't make sense for your opinion that it was the big bad IAM who destroyed Eastern. Seems there is much more to that story.

Personally I think that the wage difference that wasn't so large between the two groups was because back then planes were a lot more simpler to work on then they are today. The schooling was cheap and you probably didn't need all the certifications you do today? TODAY though very very different story. And also the reason you are compensated at a much higher rate than I am and should be. Do you hate Unions because you think with one in house "Bag Smashers" are going to go back to making close to what you do? NOT going to happen!!!!!!

Please fill in the blanks that you think I have wrong?

 

[WeAAsles]

BAL HARBOUR, Fla. — Labor Secretary Elizabeth Dole said today organized labor has an improved relationship with the Bush Administration despite the President's refusal to let government intervene in the Eastern Airlines strike.
 
"I think it's clear that we have a positive relationship in that they believe the door is open, that I want a continuing dialogue, that the President does," Dole said after meeting privately with AFL-CIO leaders.
 
"I understand that there are issues where we'll have to agree to disagree. Eastern is one of them. All right, so be it. We have to agree to disagree there," she said.
 
Again defending President Bush's veto of legislation that would have created a panel to resolve the Eastern dispute, Dole said there had been no favoritism toward management.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-02-20/news/mn-1166_1_eastern-airlines

Let's consider something else here Southwind. George Bush was President and GB was from Texas. GB refused to intervene in the demise of Eastern. Who now controls the very lucrative Miami Airport? 
 
In an industry in which everyone competes viciously for the same piece of turf, Bob Crandall stood out as the toughest guy in the business. He lived in suburban New Jersey with his wife and three kids and took the first train to the company’s headquarters in mid-town Manhattan at six o’clock and the last train home. No golf, no martini lunches, no social lubrication—just endless work. It took him just seven years to get to the top. In July 1980, a year after American moved its headquarters to North Texas, chairman Al Casey named him president.

- See more at: http://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/bob-crandall-flies-off-the-handle/#sthash.hNXsfggh.dpuf

 
 

 

[1AA]

DL is not EAL.

Amen to that.

 

[700UW]

For some clarification, the IAM at EA gave concessions before and saved EA millions and EA squandered those savings and plunged EA back into the red.

The IAM wanted guarantees if they gave concessions again that EA had a solid business plan and would ensure the members would benefit from giving back again by having them made whole again once EA got back into the black.

EA refused and that is why the IAM refused to give concessions when every other group did.

 

[1AA]

For some clarification, the IAM at EA gave concessions before and saved EA millions and EA squandered those savings and plunged EA back into the red.

The IAM wanted guarantees if they gave concessions again that EA had a solid business plan and would ensure the members would benefit from giving back again by having them made whole again once EA got back into the black.

EA refused and that is why the IAM refused to give concessions when every other group did.

Different time and different airline. Even the unions changed their ways. The IAM tough boy image is long gone. It's a money making business.

 

[topDawg]

I have a High School Diploma. That's it.

Another problem with a lot of Unions is that the members many times vote for the biggest putz's they can find. People who tell them what they want to hear because truth is something that can't be on their menu to be digested. That starts from the floor up. Hopefully by the time they reach the higher levels they've learned enough to be really good at what they do but I'm not sure that's always the case?

Maybe there should be a comprehensive test that a candidate needs to pass before he can run for anything?

Its just like US elections. Look at who is leading right now, Trump. Do I think we will do anything good? nope. 
 
FWIW I'm a Cruz or Rubio guy. 
 
I do think some kind of basic test should be done before you can run for office. 
 

Excuse me if I'm anti-union and my opinion on the matter doesn't jibe with yours but, we all have our reasons!

#1I believe a union is like any other business and once they're in, their #1 job is to stay in that business, with members concerns coming in 2nd. Still waiting on a reply from 700 about where the money from the $400 million dollar lawsuit wound up!

#2 My entire family, father, grandfather and 3 uncles worked at EAL and the funny thing is, just saw one of those uncles today who was there when EAL closed the doors and I asked him exactly why they went under and was it all managements fault.
His reply was that management was a small part of the problem but, the hammer that drove the nails home were UNIONS!

So, sorry for not believing that union representation is always in your best interest!

no offense southwind but your uncle doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.
 
The IAM and all of its members could have worked for FREE and the company still was dead. What killed Eastern was very simple. Ego.
When Eastern was working WITH the unions to find cost savings within the company. The second MANAGEMENT decided they were smarter and rolled back all those changes, IIRC at one point the IAM had found 200M in cost savings without a single pay cut or layoff YEARLY, Eastern went back in the red, labor relations went to **** and the company died.
 
Question Southwind, Delta comes to you and says you are fired or work for basically free. (call it minimum wage) you are staying right? You do and are happy about it?
 
If your answer is no, then quit blaming the IAM for EAs problems.
You need to watch the videos 700 posted. All the data is right there. 
 
 
*note not to say that ole Charlie didn't have an ego too, but he proved that he and the IAM could work with the company. Borman was the one who screwed that up.    
 

DL is not EAL.

Not at all. At least in TechOps we have a yearly goal that management and employees (EIG) agree on and try to meet that goal in cost savings. The company is also well known for allowing us to produce things like tooling to help make a job faster. 
Eastern wasn't like that. 
 
and FWIW I came close to ending up at EA. Thankfully I had family members at DL,UA and EA. The UA/EA employees (in the IAM) told me to stay away from that s**t show. 
 

  

IAM spearheaded the demise of EAL by, believing people loading bags on aircraft should be making the same as the people maintaining them.
Once again I will take the word of people who were actually there vs. an IAM pimp


No but, the IAM is still the IAM!

Like I said, you really don't know what you are talking about and it shows. I''m not trying to be rude but you are just picking up the management line and running with it. 
I bet you also think AMFA going on strike was dumb. 
 
 
and no the IAM isn't still the IAM. Back then the IAM had teeth and didn't sell out its membership. I will agree that parts of the union did have a wealth distribution issue though.  

 

[700UW]

Dawg since your hell bent on blaming the IAM for the outsourcing at US let me give you some education on the matter, and hopefully this will change your tune.
 
I know I can come across at abrasive, but I have tried to explain this to you and others over and over and I get frustrated as you and others don’t seem to let what happened sink in and understand what has transpired.
After US bought Piedmont and PSA almost everything was done in-house.  PSA had a fantastic engine shop and was the exclusive overhaul for the RB211 in North America if an airline vendored out engines for overhaul.  PSA also had the tooling for overhaul the CFM56s.
 
US bought PSA and primarily shutdown Aeromotive, which was PSA engine shop.
 
After the mergers the airline did all airframe overhauls, landing gear except for the 767 and the 757s didn’t come into the fleet until the 90s.  We had shops in INT, GSO, PIT and CLT for component overhaul and the JT8s and the Tays were overhauled in-house and the CFM56s were outsourced.
 
The IAM filed a grievance on the CFM56 outsourcing we had pictures of the tooling and fixtures that PSA had for the overhaul.  The case went to arbitration and we lost as the arbiter ruled that US didn’t have the tooling to accomplish the work, even though we had the pictures and testimony of Plant Maintenance Mechanics and Engine Mechanics who were original PSA.
 
So US buys PS and PI and then in the early 90s starts to hemorrhage cash, as you all need to remember US was the smallest of all the Major Airlines and was nicely protected in the Northeast, but now had to compete on the national and international scale.
 
British Airways and Warren Buffet gave a cash infusion Buffet’s investment was $300 million I can’t remember BA’s amount, but in the BA deal we Wet Leased three 767s and painted them in their liveries, but was worked and staffed by US employees.
 
In the early 90s US closed a bunch of maintenance stations, hangars in INT, which moved to CLT, GSO which moved to CLT and the hangar in ILM was closed, that’s where the 737-300/400 engine balance check was done.
 
The closing of the bases was just what happened in maintenance, at the time the ramp and csa were non-union and the company devastated them, they lost Express work, most of catering, mail and freight.  They downgraded 40% to part-time, took away their vacation, sick time, OJI protections, and froze their pension.
 
We were unionized and they couldn’t do that to us, we were in contract negotiations at the time which stated in 1989 and ended in 1992 with a strike and a new CBA which we took pay cuts, and some other small concessions ,but no work was lost nor was their layoffs. After the year was up we got 100% of our concessions back in a lump sum and we got stock options, and in year two we also got another 100% concession bonus back.
 
When we came back from the strike there was a backlog of overhaul and AD compliance issues, the 737 Forward Bulkhead Pressure mods, and the company approached the union as we had a bunch a 732s, some 737s and several 757s that were out of time, to vendor out some of the overhaul and mods, and we flatty refused.  Once again standing up for the workers and not allowing outsourcing.
 
Fast forward then Stephen Wolf takes over the airline, spruces it up, invests in maintenance and the planes.  We got a bunch of new equipment to benefit overhaul, line and stores.  Even got a new line hangar built in CLT, and a C-check/phase hangar in TPA was built for the airbus Cs and 737s.
 
Things were running well, then 9/11, SARS and the fuel crisis hit, Wolf resigned, and Gangwal took over and US was still bleeding cash.  So Gangwal left and brought in Dave Siegel as the new CEO as all unions were in concessionary bargaining from about June of 2002 till August, ALPA reached a concessionary deal, the AFA, CWA, IAM and TWU did not.  One Sunday morning the company came into the negotiating room and threw a final offer on the table and said take it or leave, we are filing Chapter 11 this afternoon to prevent the leaseholders and other creditors from forcing a Chapter 11 filing.  So US filed Chapter 11 the first time on a Sunday afternoon at the Bankruptcy Court in Alexandria, VA.
 
Texas Pacific (who saved CO and HP in Chapter) was our DIP financier and plan sponsor.  The Retirement Systems of Alabama run by Dr David Bronner, had a bunch of US debt and leases, he outbid Texas Pacific Group and became our DIP and new owners.  We voted on the final offer and it was voted down.  Dave Siegel then went behind the IAM’s back and sent letters to each member and their spouse telling them he was going to hold his own vote or seek abrogation.  The IAM International decided to have a revote to prevent an abrogation (which I was totally against), upon the revote concessions were ratified, with minimal job loss and no loss of Scope language.
 
So right before Christmas of 2002 US wasn’t doing well financially and Dr Bronner threatened to liquidate US if all the unions didn’t take concessions again.  So by February we agreed to a second round of concessions to prevent US from going out of business.  The concessions from the IAM Mechanic and Related employees was about $367 million a year.  And once again, we didn’t lose scope.
 
The ink wasn’t even dry nor were the I’s dotted and the T’s crossed and US filed a grievance against the IAM to allow US to outsource the Airbus S-Check, which is the five year heavy maintenance check.
 
They sent several planes, wanting up to ten to Singapore Aerospace Technologies in Mobile, AL for overhaul.  Funny how we were owned by RSA and they chose a foreign owned company in Alabama for overhaul.
 
We filed a Federal Major Dispute lawsuit and won, and the company was forced to stop work at ST MAE.  They did get permission to finish the plane that was apart.  And as a side note, the work at ST MAE was complete garbage, the first plane they did made several emergency landings due to improper flight control rigging, so our IAM represented mechanics had to redo their work to make the planes safe.
 
US filed an appeal and on appeal was successful in getting the TRO removed and proceeded to still outsource, but the appeals court remanded the case to arbitration and upon the arbitration the IAM was successful and won.  It was about a $400 million award and would have made US increase the mechanic headcount in order to do the work in-house.
 
US filed chapter 11 once again, and the award was forced into a claim in court and never paid as the judge wiped it out.  And we got the same judge in the second bankruptcy case as we did in the first, and even though the IAM and AFA petitioned the court for Judge Mitchell to recluse himself, he refused.
US filed the second time and we started negotiations in November.  Big division on the committee, PIT was willing to sacrifice Utility and CLT wasn’t. 
 
Main reason for utility being outsourced was the company didn’t want to manage them, with all the problems, attendance, late, and not doing their job.  Wildcat strike in LGA when agents were cleaning planes under the direction of the station manager all walked out except the shop steward.
 
We gave the company a full CBA which protected and added utility at the hubs and the 10 of 15 largest stations.  Company rejected it.
 
We also gave them a full comprehensive plan to keep all the overhaul and shops, which they refused as they didn’t want to employ people and manage them.
We never reached an agreement and the judge abrogated our CBA and forced us to vote on the final offer or he would impose the company’s original offer which was worse.  As they wanted to layoff 46% of the workforce, have unlimited outsourcing and terminate our pension. The members approved the final offer, as they voted for their severance.
 
So you all praise AMFA for taking the same stance at NW as the IAM did at US, but you all blame and chastise the IAM at US for what happened.
 
When a company files chapter 11, the unions have no position of power, as due to the NW winning a case against the AFA that prevented a union from striking when their CBA is abrogated.
We got no equity or anything to compensate us for our losses.
 
So it took the courts system to abrogate our CBA for US to gain the right to outsource as much as they wanted. As the IAM never agreed to any outsourcing.
 
Which the company did and had a massive layoff and an early out package.
 
So fast forward to 2008 when the IAM was able to reach a Transition Agreement with the HP merger, which the IAM was successful in bringing back 50% of Airframe Overhaul in-house, from 2005-2008 US had unlimited outsourcing and put a formula in place to ensure US was in compliance with 50% of billable hours of airframe in-house.
 
The first Section 6 negotiations since bankruptcy didn’t occur until 2011 or 2012, and while in negotiations US wouldn’t budge so we had to go into Mediated Negotiations with a mediator from the NMB.
 
Then the merger was taking place and the company wanted to stop Section 6 Negotiations and proceed into JCBA negotiations with the IAM and TWU.  The IAM learned its lesson on doing that at UA/CO which failed the members. So the IAM with the backing of the TWU refused to go into JCBA negotiations before the IAM was able to reach a Section 6 agreement.
 
So because of the merger and the impending JCBA negotiations going to take place, the IAM was able to reach a bridge agreement to get them into JCBA talks, so the IAM informed the members of the new tactic of a bridge agreement as the company wasn’t willing to budge and the Mediator explained to the company they were going down the path of bad faith negotiations.  So a bridge Section 6 CBA was agreed to and ratified by the members.
 
Sorry about the lengthy post, but people forget US was the smallest major and was bleeding cash for over a decade at times. And wasn’t on the same level as AA, CO, DL, NW and UA. The IAM did the best they could with the circumstances we were all faced with.  But the laws are written to protect the companies and the creditors not the union and its members.

 

[southwind]

Wrong again.

And only because it doesn't fall within your agenda!

To be honest, doesn't matter if ramp and FA's unionize, it's their right, but you painting pictures of rainbows and unicorns is deceitful and doesn't guarantee anything other than members forking more money out of their paycheck to a 3rd party "BUSINESS"!

 

[700UW]

And only because it doesn't fall within your agenda!

To be honest, doesn't matter if ramp and FA's unionize, it's their right, but you painting pictures of rainbows and unicorns is deceitful and doesn't guarantee anything other than members forking more money out of their paycheck to a 3rd party "BUSINESS"!

 
 

Its just like US elections. Look at who is leading right now, Trump. Do I think we will do anything good? nope. 
 
FWIW I'm a Cruz or Rubio guy. 
 
I do think some kind of basic test should be done before you can run for office. 
 
no offense southwind but your uncle doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.
 
The IAM and all of its members could have worked for FREE and the company still was dead. What killed Eastern was very simple. Ego.
When Eastern was working WITH the unions to find cost savings within the company. The second MANAGEMENT decided they were smarter and rolled back all those changes, IIRC at one point the IAM had found 200M in cost savings without a single pay cut or layoff YEARLY, Eastern went back in the red, labor relations went to #### and the company died.
 
Question Southwind, Delta comes to you and says you are fired or work for basically free. (call it minimum wage) you are staying right? You do and are happy about it?
 
If your answer is no, then quit blaming the IAM for EAs problems.
You need to watch the videos 700 posted. All the data is right there. 
 
 
*note not to say that ole Charlie didn't have an ego too, but he proved that he and the IAM could work with the company. Borman was the one who screwed that up.    
 
Like I said, you really don't know what you are talking about and it shows. I''m not trying to be rude but you are just picking up the management line and running with it. 
I bet you also think AMFA going on strike was dumb. 
 
 
and no the IAM isn't still the IAM. Back then the IAM had teeth and didn't sell out its membership. I will agree that parts of the union did have a wealth distribution issue though.  

For the third time southwind:
 
Here let me post this again since you conveniently forgot to answer this:
 
So answer this southwind, why was Frank Lorenzo removed from EA and CO, and banned permanently from ever working, owning or having anything do with an airline and yet the IAM, ALPA and the TWU who represented the employees at EA are allowed to still be in the industry?
 
Answer this too Southwind who was Lorenzo's lawyer at the time?

 

[WeAAsles]

And only because it doesn't fall within your agenda!

To be honest, doesn't matter if ramp and FA's unionize, it's their right, but you painting pictures of rainbows and unicorns is deceitful and doesn't guarantee anything other than members forking more money out of their paycheck to a 3rd party "BUSINESS"!

Southwind did you read the items I posted? Did you read the story that 700 posted? To be fair to you I'll say it right here. Yes many Unions have become more like businesses then completely worrying about the members who agreed to join them or are a part of them. That does hurt the causes of Unions. But you also have to admit that maybe they had no choice but to become businesses? At every turn there are legislators putting out bills to try and destroy Unions. 

Do you believe that a person who is part of a Union and benefits from the things written in a contract that the Union should have to defend them if they're not paying at all for the enforcement of that contract? "Free riders"

If you do then actually you're a Socialist. You might as well be able to have a Doctor or Lawyer for free as well.  

 

[700UW]

 

[robbedagain]

those were the dark days at ole US 

 

[townpete]

Caveat Emptor
 
Posted without comment. As none is needed...
 

 
Link: http://dl141.com/

 

[700UW]

And that is the proper procedure under IAM rules, one man's actions isnt the organization's actions.