Delta pilots authorize strike

[767jetz]

IMHO, if DALPA agrees to management's proposal and time shows that management asked much more than it needed, the next contract will allow DALPA to correct the rates/rules. At least they will still be working for a viable Delta.

Not really accurate. That same argument was used in the '90s during UAL's ESOP period. Pilots took large pay cuts in return for some stock, and said their sacrifices would be recognized in the next contract. The whole agreement was that if we agreed to the ESOP, we would be given an "on time" contract in 2000, and if economic forcasts held true it would be an "industry leading" one. At the time, management insisted it needed the cost savings to survive.

Well UA made Billions of dollars during ESOP, then dragged their feet with contract negotiations. The contract was not even close to "on time." And by the time it did become reality, we were at the begininng of an economic downturn.

All the while they made us out to be greedy SOB's, while conveniently forgetting the spirit of the original ESOP agreement. If they had kept their word, we would have had a new contract in Spring 2000, and the contract would have been much less costly to the company than it ended up being.

If DALPA goes along with your thinking, it is a historical certainty that the sacrifices will be forgotten, and there will be no correction to pay rates or work rules forthcoming in the future. This is why it is so important to give the company what it needs, and not a penny more.

If anything, the pilots should give the company slightly less than what it needs. It's always easier to give more later, than to get back what you already gave up.

Just my thoughts...

767jetz

 

[TheDog2004]

767jetz - wasn't that management team basically hired by the unions at United? It was 'employee owned' after all.

What was interesting at United is how the unions couldn't get along with the very management they picked themselves. They couldn't get out of the 'fight the bosses' mentality even when they got to choose their own.

 

[luv2fly]

I couldn't agree more!!!! I certainly hope that you pilots are willing to live with yourselves after so many employees and their families are affected by this!!!! Some income is better than none...I guess you just don't get that!!!! I just don't get you pilots at all!!!! :down:

Do you suppose the pilots are affected by this as well. Do you really think we don't know what a strike will mean?
"I just don't get you pilots at all!!!!--- No offense, but I really don't care what you get or don't get. It is not my responsibility to negotiate for you.

Yes, Delta is going to call DALPA's bluff. The board is A-A-K and Delta has AA while DALPA has 7-2 os hoping for a fold. The problem is Delta has the nuts and DALPA is too stupid to realize it. You'd think they would have learned SOMETHING from the amatuerish display by AMFA at Northwest.

Call the "bluff". It is time for a court to decide whether or not companies can arbitrarily disregard contractual agreements.
If Delta calls that so called bluff, we are all going to lose.

 

[aislehopper]

Not really accurate. That same argument was used in the '90s during UAL's ESOP period. Pilots took large pay cuts in return for some stock, and said their sacrifices would be recognized in the next contract.

I see you point. However, I was not really thinking that there would be a gentlemen's agreement between DALPA and management.

I was more of thinking implied threat "if you take more than you need now, we will do it to you worse later" type of agreement. While not certain to be effective, at least there would be a later.

 

[Ch. 12]

Not really accurate. That same argument was used in the '90s during UAL's ESOP period. Pilots took large pay cuts in return for some stock, and said their sacrifices would be recognized in the next contract. The whole agreement was that if we agreed to the ESOP, we would be given an "on time" contract in 2000, and if economic forcasts held true it would be an "industry leading" one. At the time, management insisted it needed the cost savings to survive.

Then why is it NOT fair in the pilots' eyes to make a correction when MORE than could be afforded is given during a negotiation (parity + x% for example)? Seems like a hypocritical argument that it applies for you when it helps you but not when it doesn't.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

For the record:

United employees did not have the entire board made up of employee picked people. If I remember correctly, there was one appointed from the pilots and one from the mechanics (not entirely sure if the other groups had one for them too). It was about a 20% - 30% employee chosen board.

The were considerably outvoted on EVERY issue so the ESOP was really NOT an employee owned company. That was just a way for them to force even more paycuts.

The only group that did not participate in the ESOP were the flight attendants.

 

[Bear96]

767jetz - wasn't that management team basically hired by the unions at United? It was 'employee owned' after all.

In the annals of airline labor relations, perhaps the greatest misconception out there is what "employee-owned" really meant during the UA ESOP period.

It meant, We take a big chunk of your wages and give you some stock in return (which would later turn out to be worthless, but that is a different story). That's all.

The unionized employees still had no say in the day-to-day management of the company, including collective bargaining negotiations. Management continued do deal and discipline as it saw fit, same as always.

 

[UALDC767]

767jetz - wasn't that management team basically hired by the unions at United? It was 'employee owned' after all.

What was interesting at United is how the unions couldn't get along with the very management they picked themselves. They couldn't get out of the 'fight the bosses' mentality even when they got to choose their own.

As others have commented, the perception that the unions ran things at UAL during ESOP is flat out wrong.

For "owning" 55% of the company, the employees (all unions except the F/A's) got two seats on the Board of Directors. Out of 13 or so! Hardly a controlling interest for such a big ownership stake.

The unions did have a couple of circumstances where they held some limited super voting rights (mergers being one) but the two union directors had to vote the same way. Split vote resulted in negating each other and the board could vote as it pleased. If both voted no then the issue died. Well they split the vote on UsAir so we went thru that debacle.

On the issue of management approval It was only for upper management, not the mid level that was so vital to the day to day operation. Yes the unions were complicit in Goodwin being named CEO. I don't know enough as to why Edwardson was not agreeable to them.

DC

 

[QA4Jet-A]

As others have commented, the perception that the unions ran things at UAL during ESOP is flat out wrong.

For "owning" 55% of the company, the employees (all unions except the F/A's) got two seats on the Board of Directors. Out of 13 or so! Hardly a controlling interest for such a big ownership stake.

The unions did have a couple of circumstances where they held some limited super voting rights (mergers being one) but the two union directors had to vote the same way. Split vote resulted in negating each other and the board could vote as it pleased. If both voted no then the issue died. Well they split the vote on UsAir so we went thru that debacle.

On the issue of management approval It was only for upper management, not the mid level that was so vital to the day to day operation. Yes the unions were complicit in Goodwin being named CEO. I don't know enough as to why Edwardson was not agreeable to them.

DC

Just kind of curious what these last few posts have to do with a possible DAL strike????

 

[sandypet]

Sadly it looks like management & union won't compromise. Delta can't survive as it is and the threat of a strike is causing the downward financial spiral to accelerate as travelers book away from Delta. The sins of the past such as ineffective management and pilots that chopped off the head of the golden goose are coming home to roost. More and more industry watchers are predicting a Delta disappearance (liquidation or merger) this year.

It will be sad to say goodbye. Delta personnel have always been some of the most customer focused and helpful in the industry.

 

[WNrforlife]

===========================================================

Ch.12,

"Lets talk REALITY HERE.(NOT "stickers, flight bags or uniforms')

DALPA just THREW the BALL back into DL's court.

It could'nt BE any clearer !!

Dalpa has told "DL"(NOT YOU, or your co-workers), that "IF you void our contract, that "95%" of our members have AUTHORIZED us to strike the Airline"

So NOW what does "DL" do ???

Does "DL" call DALPA's bluff, therefore risking a Strike, or do they get the extra $175 Million, from YOU and your co-workers ??(DL wants $325M, DALPA offered $150M, leaving $175M to be "made up" from other sources !

A strike is the "SECOND" action to possibly occur.
Throwing DALPA's Contract OUT IS THE "FIRST" ACTION TO OCCUR.
Therefore, if YOU and 49,99"8" people LOSE their jobs, put the BLAME on the entity that "Fired the FIRST SHOT", namely DELTA AIRLINES.

It would be one thing, if DL did'nt have anymore options, BUT they do !! They can TAKE MORE money from the "NON-UNION" people.

Since your group repeatedly REJECTED UNIONISM, then DALPA DOES'NT OWE YOU "ANYTHING" (Period, case closed) !!!!!

DALPA is the equivalentof ...."AN APPLE"
Everyone else................." AN ORANGE"

You and I know, THAT YOU CAN'T MIX "APPLES and ORANGES" !!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

C'mon NH, how can there be a strike if there is no company.
The second the DALPA pilots walk off the job, there is no company to strike.
The morons at DALPA actually set up a "Strike Center".
What a joke - call it what it is - an "Unemployment Center for misguided sheeple"

Buwahwahwahwah :blink:

 

[careerfurloughee]

C'mon NH, how can there be a strike if there is no company.
The second the DALPA pilots walk off the job, there is no company to strike.
The morons at DALPA actually set up a "Strike Center".
What a joke - call it what it is - an "Unemployment Center for misguided sheeple"

Buwahwahwahwah :blink:

Using your logic could it not also be said that the second the contract is voided there is no company? What a joke - a management team that doesn't realise when the "sheeple"
have had enough.

 

[WNrforlife]

Using your logic could it not also be said that the second the contract is voided there is no company? What a joke - a management team that doesn't realise when the "sheeple"
have had enough.

Why yes, I suppose that logic could be used.

Either way, Delta is toast.

Buwahwahwahwahwahwahwah

 

[careerfurloughee]

Why yes, I suppose that logic could be used.

Either way, Delta is toast.

Buwahwahwahwahwahwahwah

I agree that Delta would be toast. You just seemed to be playing the blame game. You do agree then that Delta management is aware of the consequences?

 

[WNrforlife]

I agree that Delta would be toast. You just seemed to be playing the blame game. You do agree then that Delta management is aware of the consequences?

Of Course. If the company pulls the contract, the pilots will then shut down the company.

Just quit calling it a strike. There has to be a company to work for in order for there to be a strike. 😀