careerfurloughee
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You didn't answer the question. It will be an act on Delta managements part that will start the dominos in motion.
Delta pilots authorize strike
- Thread starter JayBrian
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You didn't answer the question. It will be an act on Delta managements part that will start the dominos in motion.
One decided by an arbitration panel whose BINDING decision was asked for through and agreement of ALPA and DL Mgmt...a panel, in fact, that had 2 of 3 members chosen by ALPA as well. ALPA agreed to take the chance in putting the dominos in motion but will reneg if it doesn't go in their favor.
Taking the ball and going home b/c the outcome of something that you agreed to have decided for you doesn't fit what you want is pretty childish. Show the whole picture and not just the "mgmt" put the dominos in motion. If anything, I'd say that a bad economy and a dismal industry have put the dominos in motion.
luv2fly
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We have already been through this one time before 12. Yes, the decision by the board is binding. However, it is not binding arbitration. The decision to reject does not take away the union's right to self help, just as the company would be free to petition the BK court for another 1113 in the event the panel sides with the union.
If the panel does not grant the rejection and DL management does not petition for another 1113, I will give you credit for your statement. Will you be as quick to point out management's inability to play ball fairly if their petition is rejected and subsequently file another 1113?
Whether you're a pilot fan or not, you need to realize that they "negotiated" those increases when the company was doing well and they were not as well paid as other comparable airline pilots were.
Then they gave up $1 Billion when the company was starting the slide. Then your illustrious management team still didn't get their costs in line and get a business plan together. So they gave more money.
Now they are back again asking for more?
Why SHOULD the pilots foot the bill for management's mistakes? For every other work group?
You are what you negotiate and you can only negotiate for what the company "supposedly" can afford. Remember that it was your company that allowed them to have that fat contract in the first place. They weren't negotitating with themselves. Blame DL management for crummy accounting and poor management skills.
And don't forget to blame yourself for not having a union while you are at it.
If I even hear one more stupid comment about me "wanting" a union... You will never get it. I don't want to join a union just so that I can become ignorant to the fact that MARKET FORCES exist. Get over yourself.
"Negotiation"?! HA! Just like the current "negotiation", there is always a revolver to the head of mgmt in airline negotiations. As I've said before, Mgmt doesn't just come out and say "I'd like to give you a 25% increase even though you only want 10%." It is usually "I will give you a 25% increase b/c the company can't handle a shut down for several days when people #### and moan that they couldn't get more than 10." Sure it was "NEGOTIATED" but hostage situations are what airline labor "negotiations" are and the company usually (sorry...ALWAYS) has to give way more than the really can afford in the long run b/c the alternative is to have the hostage (the company) killed.
So I'm not responding anymore to me wanting to be in a union b/c if you continue to ignore all of my posts on what unions were and what they have become and "fight the right fight", it's pointless. And talking over and over about "negotiations" that you and I both know are not truly "negotiations" but rather "hostage situations" is pointless, too. You are just trying to spin what is obviously incorrect.
local 12 proud
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...And mgmt does'nt hold the revolver in a downturn? It's a two way street. Ive been silent up until now only reading your post, but you obviously detest Labor and think they should just bend over everytime Management decides to get the "KY" out.
Believe it or not, there is a bottom to wage concessions and "The well has run Dry" for most in this Industry.
You really think that companies negotiate and give more than what they want to avert a shut down or walk out? Recent history has proven that walk outs and strikes don't really favor labor. Either the companies hire scabs or they have the president order people back to work.
You are what you negotiate. Negotiations being the key word. When you have to resort to threat the game is usually over and one side or the other will win. Lately management has the upper hand because people do not want to lose their jobs and other people need jobs and are willing to cross picket lines to make money.
This is interesting to watch because all other airline labor groups want the pilots to finally tell management the well is dry. The problem is that if they do that there are going to be a lot of people out of work and they will all blame the pilots even though it is management who caused the whole thing. Then management will likely just pick up their briefcases and find another job at a different company where their schoolmates or former colleagues work and make the same amount of money. There's no justice if the company goes out of business. There's only justice if management backs off and gets their cuts other ways or if they come up with a super duper deal with hefty snap backs when the company is on their feet.
Well...let's see...this is a downturn and it is labor that holds the nukes. I guess that since it isn't mgmt with the power in this instance that you don't consider this a downturn? I guess if you are like Skymess, you are blind to the fact that it is economics and technology that has changed the airlines. You give way too much credit to DL's mgmt for putting the entire industry into such a deep trench.
Again...pride and ignorance has blinded so many as to what is really going on in the industry. Sure mgmt of ALL carriers (including blessed WN) has made many horrible decisions and will continue to in the future. But to give credit to any of them for putting the industry in the state that it is is assinine. Wake up.
Go HERE (Pilots Clear out Lockers) or HERE (DALPA Pilots Share Their Thoughts) to get a real 'feel' for what's about to happen.
Best of luck Delta, it doesn't look good unless the management team becomes the ones to change. This is like watching a slow moving train wreck.
WNrforlife
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Looks like the Union Management hacks are doing o.k. for themselves....
Top 10 International ALPA Leaders & Staff (by Salary) Name Title Total Compensation
Duane Woerth President $ 550,729
Jalmer Johnson Geneal Manager $ 380,771
Jonatha Cohen Chief Counsel, D $ 370,957
Bruce York Director Represe $ 354,472
Spyrido Skiados Director, Commun $ 305,777
Kevin Barnhurst Director, Financ $ 297,681
Paul Hallisay Director Govern $ 293,753
Kenneth Cooper Asst Dir Represe $ 288,835
James Johnson Managing Attorne $ 285,249
William Roberts Asst Dir Represe $ 283,820
Top 10 International ALPA Leaders & Staff (by Salary) Name Title Total Compensation
Duane Woerth President $ 550,729
Jalmer Johnson Geneal Manager $ 380,771
Jonatha Cohen Chief Counsel, D $ 370,957
Bruce York Director Represe $ 354,472
Spyrido Skiados Director, Commun $ 305,777
Kevin Barnhurst Director, Financ $ 297,681
Paul Hallisay Director Govern $ 293,753
Kenneth Cooper Asst Dir Represe $ 288,835
James Johnson Managing Attorne $ 285,249
William Roberts Asst Dir Represe $ 283,820
because they refuse to see it... :down:
1 VF-1 2NV
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Taken from another forum:
"Tuesday, April 04, 2006
A Letter To Delta Pilots
Greetings Capt. Moak,
I am a reservations agent in Tampa, Florida and I thought that it might be beneficial to express to you what many of us on the front lines feel about the pilot's position regarding a strike. I don't write this to attack you in any way, and in fact, I am probably more sympathetic than most of my fellow agents. I recognize that nobody wants to have their pay cut and while many of us that make less than $30,000 a year find it difficult to be sympathetic to a work group that averages over $150,000 a year, I recognize that people tend to live up to their means and a cut in pay for anyone is a real and sincere sacrifice.
That being said, I believe that your threat to strike is myopic and self serving. I have read some of the material on the ALPA web site and in a number of places the claim is made that Delta is "Our Airline". I beg to differ. It is not only "your" airline. There are about 6000 pilots out of over 47,000 employees. It is as much my airline as it is yours and yet you hold the power to take action that will not only effect you, but 41,000 other people.
I am certain we could have a healthy debate about contracts and fairness, what you have and have not given, what the company has done or not done ad nauseam. I don't doubt that there is some validity to your position. No side can be completely right in such a matter. But the bottom line is that this is not the same industry that it was 10 years ago. 9-11, the advent of low cost carriers, changes in the dynamics of business travel and rising fuel prices, among other things, have altered the dynamics of the industry forever and an airline simply cannot sustain itself with the cost structure it was once able to. I find it difficult to believe that if you shut down our airline, the people you represent are going to be able to walk out on the street and find jobs making what that would make even if you accept Delta's concession in toto.
One line in your letter caught my attention. It is a sad footnote in Delta's history that in a business where people matter... To be blunt, people are not just pilots and as you chart a course forward, I hope you will take into consideration that there are 41,000 of us out here that your decisions will impact. 41,000 of us that have mortgages, kids to feed, cars to pay for and backs to put clothes on. We have made our own sacrifices, absorbed pay cuts and benefit reductions and we have hung in there because we believe that if we all pull together, we can turn Delta around and bring her back to the great airline she once was. Quite frankly, we are angry that 7.8% of the workforce has power over the rest of us...that 7.8% of the workforce has the capacity to send the other 92.2% of us to the unemployment line. Since it is OUR airline, perhaps all 47,000 of us should vote as to whether you strike or not.
I think I am pretty typical of most of the front line Delta employees. I made less then $30,000 last year. I have taken pay and benefit cuts to stay with Delta. Why? Because I enjoy my job, I enjoy the ability to travel and I have found Delta to be a good company to work for. But, at what I make, I don't have a cushion. I live pretty much paycheck to paycheck and I am basically up the proverbial creek if that paycheck stops, even for a short time. I would guess that most of your pilots have the means to handle a temporary period of unemployment, but most of us on the customer service side do not have that luxury. Is your union going to help me pay my rent and child support if you choose to strike and run this airline out of business?
You have complained that you believe that the company views the threat of a strike as "saber rattling" or empty threats, but I get the impression that you believe the claim that a strike would force a liquidation of the company as an idle threat as well. I have a background in business and a degree and accounting and let me assure you, these are not empty words. Delta Airlines does not have the resources to survive even a short strike. If one looks at the situation objectively, one has to conclude that the pilot's position is based either on ignorance to reality or that you simply do not care what happens to YOUR airline. Either way, it seems pretty foolish from this vantage point.
Finally, I should add that I work in special member services and spend my day talking almost exclusively to medallion level frequent fliers. I talk to between 60 and 100 people a day and I am asked multiple times each day what I think about the possibility of a strike. In all of the months that this has been going on, I have yet to ever have one passenger state that they support your position. Most are sympathetic, but state the obvious...the industry has changed and you would be foolish to strike.
I don't expect this to change your mind, or alter your position, but I felt that it was important, as you move forward, to be reminded of the responsibility you have taken upon yourself. You are not only playing with the lives of the men and women you represent, you are playing with the lives of 41,000 other people, not to mention our passengers, who have entrusted their money and plans to us in the faith that we will get them where they need to go. There is only one word that can be used for a course of action that would negatively impact so many people in such a profound way...selfish. I urge you to endeavor to find some solution to this issue short of shutting down the airline. It is simply not the right thing to do."
"Tuesday, April 04, 2006
A Letter To Delta Pilots
Greetings Capt. Moak,
I am a reservations agent in Tampa, Florida and I thought that it might be beneficial to express to you what many of us on the front lines feel about the pilot's position regarding a strike. I don't write this to attack you in any way, and in fact, I am probably more sympathetic than most of my fellow agents. I recognize that nobody wants to have their pay cut and while many of us that make less than $30,000 a year find it difficult to be sympathetic to a work group that averages over $150,000 a year, I recognize that people tend to live up to their means and a cut in pay for anyone is a real and sincere sacrifice.
That being said, I believe that your threat to strike is myopic and self serving. I have read some of the material on the ALPA web site and in a number of places the claim is made that Delta is "Our Airline". I beg to differ. It is not only "your" airline. There are about 6000 pilots out of over 47,000 employees. It is as much my airline as it is yours and yet you hold the power to take action that will not only effect you, but 41,000 other people.
I am certain we could have a healthy debate about contracts and fairness, what you have and have not given, what the company has done or not done ad nauseam. I don't doubt that there is some validity to your position. No side can be completely right in such a matter. But the bottom line is that this is not the same industry that it was 10 years ago. 9-11, the advent of low cost carriers, changes in the dynamics of business travel and rising fuel prices, among other things, have altered the dynamics of the industry forever and an airline simply cannot sustain itself with the cost structure it was once able to. I find it difficult to believe that if you shut down our airline, the people you represent are going to be able to walk out on the street and find jobs making what that would make even if you accept Delta's concession in toto.
One line in your letter caught my attention. It is a sad footnote in Delta's history that in a business where people matter... To be blunt, people are not just pilots and as you chart a course forward, I hope you will take into consideration that there are 41,000 of us out here that your decisions will impact. 41,000 of us that have mortgages, kids to feed, cars to pay for and backs to put clothes on. We have made our own sacrifices, absorbed pay cuts and benefit reductions and we have hung in there because we believe that if we all pull together, we can turn Delta around and bring her back to the great airline she once was. Quite frankly, we are angry that 7.8% of the workforce has power over the rest of us...that 7.8% of the workforce has the capacity to send the other 92.2% of us to the unemployment line. Since it is OUR airline, perhaps all 47,000 of us should vote as to whether you strike or not.
I think I am pretty typical of most of the front line Delta employees. I made less then $30,000 last year. I have taken pay and benefit cuts to stay with Delta. Why? Because I enjoy my job, I enjoy the ability to travel and I have found Delta to be a good company to work for. But, at what I make, I don't have a cushion. I live pretty much paycheck to paycheck and I am basically up the proverbial creek if that paycheck stops, even for a short time. I would guess that most of your pilots have the means to handle a temporary period of unemployment, but most of us on the customer service side do not have that luxury. Is your union going to help me pay my rent and child support if you choose to strike and run this airline out of business?
You have complained that you believe that the company views the threat of a strike as "saber rattling" or empty threats, but I get the impression that you believe the claim that a strike would force a liquidation of the company as an idle threat as well. I have a background in business and a degree and accounting and let me assure you, these are not empty words. Delta Airlines does not have the resources to survive even a short strike. If one looks at the situation objectively, one has to conclude that the pilot's position is based either on ignorance to reality or that you simply do not care what happens to YOUR airline. Either way, it seems pretty foolish from this vantage point.
Finally, I should add that I work in special member services and spend my day talking almost exclusively to medallion level frequent fliers. I talk to between 60 and 100 people a day and I am asked multiple times each day what I think about the possibility of a strike. In all of the months that this has been going on, I have yet to ever have one passenger state that they support your position. Most are sympathetic, but state the obvious...the industry has changed and you would be foolish to strike.
I don't expect this to change your mind, or alter your position, but I felt that it was important, as you move forward, to be reminded of the responsibility you have taken upon yourself. You are not only playing with the lives of the men and women you represent, you are playing with the lives of 41,000 other people, not to mention our passengers, who have entrusted their money and plans to us in the faith that we will get them where they need to go. There is only one word that can be used for a course of action that would negatively impact so many people in such a profound way...selfish. I urge you to endeavor to find some solution to this issue short of shutting down the airline. It is simply not the right thing to do."
If you have a degree in accounting go and find another job! The pilots should not held hostage because many others have CHOSEN not get educated or look for other opportunities. You know what the airline industry has been like and if you have put the fact that you like your job and flying over the welfare of your family that is not their fault. If you think you can guilt these pilots into taking pay cuts you are wrong. The company has to meet them with realistic goals. If you think these pilots have put away money to support their families during a possible liquidation. You're right. Its take foresight and integrity to prep for such a sad situation. These pilots have spent many years earning their education and carry the lives of your elite flyers as well as your family and deserve to be treated better. Your pax are more worried about getting from pt A to pt B so they can handle their business and make their money. If they are so concerned about the industry ask them to pay more for their tkts and no one will have to take a pay cut. Maybe the pilots were smart enough to have a union fight for them.
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If these 41,000 people were so interested in having a vote over the strike, perhaps they should have voted in the union when they had the chance. Then THEY WOULD have a vote in the matter.
Too late now, the pilots are cleaning out the lockers as we type.
As a footnote: I believe that there will never be a strike and a solution will be made at the 11th hour. I also believe that the non-union folks will be the ones to foot the bill when management gives in to the pilots demands.
Too late now, the pilots are cleaning out the lockers as we type.
As a footnote: I believe that there will never be a strike and a solution will be made at the 11th hour. I also believe that the non-union folks will be the ones to foot the bill when management gives in to the pilots demands.
