Delta trying to compete with LCC's

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

if 99.9% of the people get it wrong doesn't make it right.
 

 

again, you misread and misstate.
 

 
Why don't you tell us how we're supposed to read a comment like that?
 

who said DL was perfect? I did say they protect their markets better than other carriers.

how's that list of market share in the top 5 markets for AA, DL, and UA?

 
While DL has indeed done a good job of restricting the likes of WN at DTW, MSP, and SLC, and currently one could argue at ATL too, I'm not sure it is accurate to just state that UA and AA suck at protecting their markets. 
 
For example, it is much more difficult for AA and UA to attempt to restrict the likes of WN in IAH/HOU, DFW/DAL, ORD/MDW than it was for NW to compete against WN in DTW.  How aggressive should have UA and AA been?  Split up their operations between the 2 airports in the above mentioned cities? 
 
Also, look at a market like DTW:  it seems to me that for many years now WN is perfectly happy offering their 20-30 daily flights (I think those numbers are close to what WN flies to-from DTW).  Doesn't that suggest that the market is just not there for WN to significantly expand further and still meet their profit projections?
 
Speaking ATL and of DL protecting their markets, AirTran (and Valuejet) did manage to grow quite nicely there.  So while currently WN is not growing ATL, it might not be a good thing to be bragging about how DL just manages to crush LCCs.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't say that AA or UA sucks at protecting their markets.

I simply said that DL has a higher market share in its top markets than AA or UA has in theirs.

and yes LCCs aren't growing in DL's markets and in some cases shrinking.

BTW, FL's last day is just a few days away - and with it go a number of 717s that FL has used for ATL service.

 

[jcw]

Let's see US drove WN from the PIT to PHL market and WN has reduced in PHL - so in CLT, PHX and PHL US has done a great job in containing WN so don't kill yourself patting DL on the back when you can say US has done better against WN in more markets than DL

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

I didn't say that AA or UA sucks at protecting their markets.

I simply said that DL has a higher market share in its top markets than AA or UA has in theirs.

and yes LCCs aren't growing in DL's markets and in some cases shrinking.

BTW, FL's last day is just a few days away - and with it go a number of 717s that FL has used for ATL service.

 
Well you certainly made it sound like UA and AA aren't capable of fighting off LCCs.
 
I'd still love to hear your opinion of how and why DL allowed Valuejet to grow so large in ATL.  IIRC, they started out in the early 1990s ('92 or '93) and by the time they bought AirTran, they were running a pretty decent operation in ATL - they've must have had 40-50 DC-9s.  I don't know if WN was allowed to grow to 40-50 aircraft in their first 5 years of existence.  I suppose you could argue that WN started in the CAB regulated era and were thus restricted, but still.
 
Also isn't Spirit growing in CVG?
 
I don't think 717s are pertinent to this discussion, but feel free to correct me.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Let's see US drove WN from the PIT to PHL market and WN has reduced in PHL - so in CLT, PHX and PHL US has done a great job in containing WN so don't kill yourself patting DL on the back when you can say US has done better against WN in more markets than DL

 
I hate to break it to you but US doesn't exist.
 

Well you certainly made it sound like UA and AA aren't capable of fighting off LCCs.
 
I'd still love to hear your opinion of how and why DL allowed Valuejet to grow so large in ATL.  IIRC, they started out in the early 1990s ('92 or '93) and by the time they bought AirTran, they were running a pretty decent operation in ATL - they've must have had 40-50 DC-9s.  I don't know if WN was allowed to grow to 40-50 aircraft in their first 5 years of existence.  I suppose you could argue that WN started in the CAB regulated era and were thus restricted, but still.
 
Also isn't Spirit growing in CVG?
 
I don't think 717s are pertinent to this discussion, but feel free to correct me.

ValuJet was a small replacement to Eastern Air Lines which was DL's long term cross airport ATL rival.

ValuJet and FL never received anywhere near close the size EA had.

with FL's demise just around the corner, WN is even smaller in ATL.

just publish the market share statistics for AA, DL, and UA's size in its top 5 markets.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

ValuJet was a small replacement to Eastern Air Lines which was DL's long term cross airport ATL rival.

ValuJet and FL never received anywhere near close the size EA had.

with FL's demise just around the corner, WN is even smaller in ATL.
 

 
Yes, but in your world where DL crushes LCCs, Valuejet should have never been allowed to succeed - even to the size it has (which is pretty significant nevertheless).  Could you not argue that it was really NW - not DL - that was quite aggressive against LCCs, and now that culture has been transferred to DL?  The NW hubs in MSP, DTW and MEM were probably least exposed to LCCs, whereas DLs hubs, except for CVG, had LCCs galore (FL@ATL, B6@JFK, WN@SLC).  If I wanted to be nit picky, I would make the argument that UA and AA, by keeping WN at secondary airports (MDW, HOU, DAL) were far more successful at restricting LCCs than DL, which allowed them to flourish at their hub airports.

 

[700UW]

 
I hate to break it to you but US doesn't exist.
 
 

Why dont you tell the FAA that as PMUS certainly does exist and is currently flying under their own Operating Certificate and not AA's.
 
And US is still operating under their policies and procedures when it comes to flight ops and maintenance.
 
Your lying again.

 

[Kev3188]

Could you not argue that it was really NW - not DL - that was quite aggressive against LCCs, and now that culture has been transferred to DL?  The NW hubs in MSP, DTW and MEM were probably least exposed to LCCs, whereas DLs hubs, except for CVG, had LCCs galore (FL@ATL, B6@JFK, WN@SLC).

This is true. NW had no taste for sharing the sandbox with others.

It's a long list, but I'll submit red-eye flying to LAS out of places like MSN/FAR/FSD/ to squash G4 as exhibit A.

And you're correct about the network as well; NW did no North-South flying on either coast, and very little "across" the southern US.

In MSP, the biggest competition were the various iterations of SY; WN wasn't even there until not all that long ago.

In DTW, you had NK, but it wasn't too knock down/drag out. WN had (has) a nice operation there, but for the most part, they stayed out of each other's way. For awhile they flew out of DET. Same story with Pro Air, for what that's worth.

In MEM? Well, outside of revenue leakage to LIT or even BNA, there were only a handful of ValuJet flights ( I think they had 4x daily at one point)...

 

[jcw]

 
I hate to break it to you but US doesn't exist.
 
 

 
Once again the facts are getting in the way of your fantasy - US is still operating - you see that sticker on the side of the plane that says it's operated by US Airways
 
Last I checked the senior leadership that oversaw PHL, CLT, and PHX - is in charge at AA - could is be possible that they had something to do with how US managed to keep WN at bay
 
Let's see back to ATL - for being so great at keeping LCC's out of their markets - has anyone called WN and Air Tran prior to this week to let them know that DL is the best at preventing LCC's in their markets - I guess all those jets in ATL you can't see - did the widget cap fall to cover your eyes?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yes, but in your world where DL crushes LCCs, Valuejet should have never been allowed to succeed - even to the size it has (which is pretty significant nevertheless).  Could you not argue that it was really NW - not DL - that was quite aggressive against LCCs, and now that culture has been transferred to DL?  The NW hubs in MSP, DTW and MEM were probably least exposed to LCCs, whereas DLs hubs, except for CVG, had LCCs galore (FL@ATL, B6@JFK, WN@SLC).  If I wanted to be nit picky, I would make the argument that UA and AA, by keeping WN at secondary airports (MDW, HOU, DAL) were far more successful at restricting LCCs than DL, which allowed them to flourish at their hub airports.

ATL has always been a two hub airport.

It is no more realistic to think that DL could succeed at eliminating all other hub carriers any more than ORD or DEN could be single carrier hubs.

you can help what's his name with the list of market shares and let us know the market shares of carriers in their top markets.

remember that ATL has just one airport; Dallas, Chicago, New York and other multi-hub cities have more than one airport with hubs.

DL knew how to compete with low fare carriers long before NW came along. It is precisely because DL and NW share the same culture that they have worked as well as they do.

btw, the top network and strategy people at DL are not from NW.
 

Why dont you tell the FAA that as PMUS certainly does exist and is currently flying under their own Operating Certificate and not AA's.
 
And US is still operating under their policies and procedures when it comes to flight ops and maintenance.
 
Your lying again.

their brand just is being wiped off the map, right?

AA doesn't really want to spend the money to get rid of all of the operating differences so US will be around.

How long will it take for AA and US to fully merge ops? can you list the time from official merger to full ops merger for each of the big 4 US mergers?

perhaps you can see that the time to get to a full ops merger also affects the ability to be competitive and use resources most effectively.

btw, WN's ops merger is fully effective in a week, right?

 

[jcw]

the dunce cap must be on today really tight
 
Are we now going to start on how long to take to merge tack again - basically you are still saying you have not come to terms with how the different airlines have approached mergers
 
Yes WN's is they announced the merger in 2010 - so we are almost 4 years into that integration - however you can trash WN on the WN board like you did last night accusing them of running an unsafe operation
 
Once again the facts are working against you so you changed the topic to merger integration time line

 

[WorldTraveler]

No, the facts are working exactly as intended.

I didn't bring up that US still is operating. It has been swallowed up by AA and has no brand identity of its own - or won't before much longer.


And, yes, a single carrier does affect the ability to compete - WN has been at a disadvantage in ATL because they have had divided policies and identities in a market where DL is already far larger.

 

[BABABOOY]

hey baba,
for the record, do you have ANY idea what a passenger has paid for a ticket when you serve them in the cabin?

Yes we have an IDEA who pays more than the other.  Both in BE and in the Main cabin.

 

[swamt]

Yes we have an IDEA who pays more than the other.  Both in BE and in the Main cabin.

I said this from the very beginning.  Once again he has no clue what he is talking about...

 

[jcw]

I wonder if the pom poms got in the way of service