Discord Grows In Airline Talks

[Dea Certe]

blueoceans,

What exactly are artificially high wages? I think that's something more like some executives in Corporate America get paid, not the rank and file at any alirine.

The way I see it is, my body could probably survive on fish heads and cabbage. I might be able to scrounge these up by doing a little dumpster diving behind some restaurant. But, I choose to feed my body healthy foods that I buy at the grocery store. Does that mean my grocery budget is artificially high?

Seriously.

Dea

 

[blueoceans]

Just take a look at what you're doing now, and find comparisons outside the company. For example, how much do cleaners make outside of the airline for the same work? Your wierd comparison to an unhealthy diet makes no sense.

 

[ITRADE]

I think the folks doing the cleaning in my building get about $7.50 an hour.

 

[ITRADE]

C'mon Dea Certe. I see you replying in quick fashion!

 

[Dea Certe]

blueoceans,

I don't know that there are any real parallels to a flight attendant job. Food server, nurse, fire fighter, diplomat, baby-sitter all apply on some levels.


There's an amount of risk and benefit to all those jobs. Ergonomics and economics. Training, skill, education and finesse.

Did you know that flight attendants have a higher rate of on-the-job injuries than construction workers?

Stress and fatigue. Cosmic radiation exposure. Clear air turbulence.

I just don't understand about "artificially high" wages. Does a CEO of a floundering company, or an MBA of a corporation that fails to produce profits because of poor job performance call their pay checks "artificially high"?

Airlines are tough to measure by most business standards. It's cyclic in nature and made even more complex by a strange system of fares. Wouldn't the entire industry and the traveling public benefit most by having a rationalized fare structure?

I believe the industry and traveling public also benefit by having well-trained and skilled workers at their service. I think there's a point where the cost benefit of paying the lowest wages breaks down and becomes a liability. Same as having an over-paid, under-producing management team.

Dea

 

[Dea Certe]

Itrade,

You devil! I was trying to give a thoughtful response to blueoceans. Give an old lady a little slack now and then!

Dea

 

[ktflyhome]

Dea, I believe folks are really interested in what you have to say, because you show a great deal of wisdom. Your posts are full of great insight, experience, thoughtfullness and lend a touch of comfort. Thanks.

PS. Don't go getting full of yourself.

 

[Dea Certe]

blueoceans,

I forgot. I guess I was going for an analogy of healthy body, healthy corporation.

I don't care what they say about fish being "brain" food. Those fish heads aren't helping mine any today!

Dea

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The roll call vote system was instituted by ALPA MANY years ago (probably at its inception) for good reason, to give ALL pilots equal representation. There is a reason it exists, and it has worked well thoughout the years. Now that it is working against certain groups of pilots' agendas they want to trash the whole system. How childish and shortsighted. Differing opinions and lively discussion are a GOOD thing, and exactly why this parliamentary system was adopted by many governments as well as ALPA. Besides, with these deadlines occuring in the next 2-4 weeks, how in the world can any of these concessions have any impact on whether UAIR can pay its bills or not? Even if instituted these cuts will take at least a month and likely more to even show an effect on the bottom line. There are WAY too many unanswered questions here for this person to embrace the kind of draconian cuts the company says they need to survive.

 

[MrAeroMan]

I don't understand. If the PIT and PHL representatives of ALPA represent the majority of the pilots at UAIR and they say their stance represents the majority of the pilots at their bases then why are they so afraid to send the proposal out for a vote? If they are doing what the pilots at their bases are telling them and those pilots hold the majority numbers then they shouldn't be afraid of a vote as it will be rejected by the members they say they are representing. Am I missing something here??

 

[BoeingBoy]

MrAero,

What you're missing is a process that is supposed to prevent the company from "negotiating" directly with the individual pilots.

When the MEC effectively eliminates the NC from the process by considering each company offer, they undercut the ability of the NC to reach an equitable agreement with the company. Why? Because the NC can't say "This is not good enough to take to the MEC", thus forcing the company to negotiate with them in good faith.

When the MEC then wants to merely pass the company's proposal out to the membership for a vote, they remove themselves from the process. The MEC has relinquished the right to say "This is not good enough to put to a membership vote." One less reason for the company to negotiate in good faith.

You see, in negotiations the company controls most of the levers of power. The power of the NC and MEC is pretty much limited to saying "No, this is not good enough". When the MEC gives that up, they have pretty much unilaterally disarmed.

Jim

 

[Benz M-100]

I think Jim has hit the nail on the head. This company has not thusfar and will not in the future negotiate in "good faith". I honestly think this has all been a sham in order to present the lowest ALPA "counteroffer" to the BK judge as an "acceptable" set of work rules and wages...a way of testing the lowest level possible if you will. It is irrelevent whether this is what is actually NEEDED for a transformation. It has obvouisly become a game of "how low can we go" at this point.

The IAM's stance (not that I totally disagree with it) has made a trip to court a foregone conclusion and the actual value of an 1113 letter is extremely iffy at best from what I've seen (can't guarantee that it will avoid vacating the contracts, etc, etc.)

...and I've seen enough. Take it to the judge! They're planning to go there anyway! Let the chips fall where they may. I think a pattern of bad faith bargaining on the part of the company can be shown clearly given the pattern proposals and counters thusfar. Perhaps this will have some value in court, perhaps not. But at this point, I'm so disgusted I'm ready for another career. Restoring M-100s comes to mind...

/rant. My best wishes to all.

 

[cavalier]

Eye,

I agree. But there are some employees that have low self esteem and are fearful of the prospects of not having work for a day.

[post="175324"][/post]​

Talk about attitude.

People have their life on the line and not everybody has a gold mine in their back yard.

Union breaking I could believe but not to this extreme of utter extinction.

The world changes and you either change with it or live in denial saying it’s a gold mine and this is only union breaking.

Brother! Best laugh I had for a long time...

 

[NeedForSpeedNFS]

NFS,

U will go into BK whether the unions circum or not. IT IS THE PLAN.

Trust, that many, and I mean many will lose their jobs just as soon as all the unions sign on the dotted line. Hope you won't be one of them. This is the reality for many of the employees at U and that is WITH AGREEMENTS.

[post="175319"][/post]​

PITbull.... I WILL NOT be one of them, because I have formulated a plan to CHANGE. Which is what every poster, and casual observer to this board, better SEAR into their mind!!! I have had many disagreements with you, 700, & Cav over these last several months. Many of those disagreements were in relation to The "union mindset". This is NOT to be confused with "anti-union", I am not! To the contrary, to the best of my ability, I tried to convey my thoughts of why people need to be open to...."CHANGE". As I have said before,and will repeat once more, this industry has changed FOREVER!! We, as just the comman worker in a huge corporation, have zero leverage. Union, or no union, this industry WILL change!! With that said, I do agree with what you say in relation to the many job losses to come. I just hope that most employees of U have the fortitude to forge ahead, and move on with their lives! On a personall note that may help those of you who are distressed and worried, which I am sure their are many....seek a different path, there IS life after Usairways!!!!! And.... Take your prozac!!!!!!! LOL Well, people I sure did vent!!! Thanks for reading.. GOOD DAY!!!!!!

 

[Phoenix]

Here's a basic summary of today's loads from PIT to DCA:

F7 P7 A7 Y7 B7 H7 Q7 V7 M7 W7 L7 S7 T7

Basically the same on EVERY flight. The seat mapper showed me about 40 open seats on the 3:40 departure alone.

Its not that tough.

[post="175273"][/post]​

Red herrings all.

Non-reving to DC for an MEC meeting that is mostly closed door session, and for a meeting at which your presence means nothing, is pointless (regardless of how easy it would be to go there and waste your time, or whether or not you have dry or wet bedsheets).

“Recall meetingâ€￾ attendance is much more representative of the sentiments. Pilots can vote and their presence means something because at least the vote cannot be held in ALPA scheming secrecy.