do not take concessions make the judge take em

[Harvey]

To all the union members do not take concessions your union will tell you it's best if we give up cencession ourselves. Go to court and fight for everything piece by piece drag it out and fight you'll do better...

 

[Rogallo]

Thanks Harvey, but my union, the TWU, 'DOES NOT FIGHT'!!!

 

[Flex]

To all the union members do not take concessions your union will tell you it's best if we give up cencession ourselves. Go to court and fight for everything piece by piece drag it out and fight you'll do better...

I'd love to live in your world for just one day!

 

[TWU informer]

My personal opinion is that AA stands a damn good chance of making it out of Chapter 11 alone without USAir and without DIP Loans. AA has to keep the creditors on their side, at least the big players in this fight.

If we make this a battle and they reach for DIP Financing, we will likely end up stapled to the bottom of USAir seniority list and much worse off.

I am not saying we should give up the farm again without fair negotations, but there has to be a limit to our ingorance and self destruction. Entering into a fight that will surely lead to a merger is not the best plan at the current time. That might be the only way in the end, but we should wait and see what the cuurent AA plan is before we just blanket say fight to the end.

How can anyone say don't accpet an offer that has not even been made yet?
Stupid is as Stupid does once again.

 

[Harvey]

My personal opinion is that AA stands a damn good chance of making it out of Chapter 11 alone without USAir and without DIP Loans. AA has to keep the creditors on their side, at least the big players in this fight.

If we make this a battle and they reach for DIP Financing, we will likely end up stapled to the bottom of USAir seniority list and much worse off.

I am not saying we should give up the farm again without fair negotations, but there has to be a limit to our ingorance and self destruction. Entering into a fight that will surely lead to a merger is not the best plan at the current time. That might be the only way in the end, but we should wait and see what the cuurent AA plan is before we just blanket say fight to the end.

How can anyone say don't accpet an offer that has not even been made yet?
Stupid is as Stupid does once again.

 

[Harvey]

your a fool you think your union and AA will negociate fairly don't hold your breath, take this all the way to court atleast thier it will be out in the open with less chance of back room deals. Not saying you won't be screwed but their will be more eyes watching. You give up concession yourself and it was later found that AA and the TWU had some undisclosed deals you'll have no leg to stand on...

 

[Kellerguy]

I'd love to live in your world for just one day!

I'm not so sure this would be very good advice. I'm no expert on bankruptcy law, but I believe union represented groups are supposed to first negotiate with the management, and if they reach agreement, then present it to the creditors (our owners now) for approval then then the bankruptcy judge to accept or reject. If the parties cannot reach agreement, then the judge is bound to take action to ensure the contract offer is competitive and allows the business to succeed. Competitive does not mean pay, work rules and benefits independently of each other, but the total cost to the business. The judge does not get involved in negotiations but will rule, act, terminate or otherwise modify the contract as they see necessary to suit the objective--which is to allow the resulting reorganization to be a successful business. Any other outcome is a failure of the bankruptcy process. Many may be confusing this with the GM bankruptcy handling where the government was an active participant, but that was because the government became the largest creditor and was involved. That won't happen here. As for management, they are not assured they will be in place at the end either, that depends on the creditors impressions of whether they can get the job done.

 

[strikeforce]

My personal opinion is that AA stands a damn good chance of making it out of Chapter 11 alone without USAir and without DIP Loans. AA has to keep the creditors on their side, at least the big players in this fight.

If we make this a battle and they reach for DIP Financing, we will likely end up stapled to the bottom of USAir seniority list and much worse off.

I am not saying we should give up the farm again without fair negotations, but there has to be a limit to our ingorance and self destruction. Entering into a fight that will surely lead to a merger is not the best plan at the current time. That might be the only way in the end, but we should wait and see what the cuurent AA plan is before we just blanket say fight to the end.

How can anyone say don't accpet an offer that has not even been made yet?
Stupid is as Stupid does once again.

I don't believe this guy meant any harm and he probably knows how hard the TWU will fight for US. Look, we've had disagreements on many issues, but WE can probably agree on one thing, the TWU leadership will agree to bring any offer placed before them outside BK court for membership vote, and as long as they don't give away the farm....for whatever that means....I believe the membership will accept it. Now, your version of giving away the farm may differ considerably from my version. I can't predict what you would agree to, but I'm not willing to give away the farm and take it in the shorts. M&R should not underestimate the willingness of the TWU to give away the farm and I'm talking Scope, Pay, Vacations, Job Security Provisions, Group Health, Pension, Retiree Medical, and so on....in exchange for dues. We've been down this road before and it didn't help anyone, and as a matter of fact put lots of people in financial ruin. I would agree to a watered down version of losing some benefits and some layoffs, and if my number is called to go out the door, so be it. I've prepared myself for the worst. I believe 10,999 others should have prepared themselves for the worst too. This BK just didn't come out of nowhere. People should have been planning in 2003 for this day.
Now, before people start saying that AA has all the power, I'm not saying they don't, but with AA planning immediate negotiations with labor, WE don't have to accept the raping and can accept to go in front of the judge....in other words, We don't have to VOLUNTARILY help AA....we've done that before and you see where it got us!

 

[usa1]

Spoken from experience ... the next shoe to drop will be a piss poor offer from a BK judge with the threat of a chapter 7 liquidation our a total break up with many parts spun off in every direction ..... if you don't take the offer. 😛h34r:

 

[LGA / 037]

My personal opinion is that AA stands a damn good chance of making it out of Chapter 11 alone without USAir and without DIP Loans. AA has to keep the creditors on their side, at least the big players in this fight.

If we make this a battle and they reach for DIP Financing, we will likely end up stapled to the bottom of USAir seniority list and much worse off.


Problem is nobody in their right mind with the AMR debt load would give you DIP financing.................

"As everybody knows by now, American Airlines and its parent company, AMR, filed for bankruptcy on Tuesday morning. AMR shareholders will certainly be wiped out in the bankruptcy process, but many of American's competitors (and their shareholders) stand to gain. While it was clear that AMR was destined for bankruptcy sooner rather than later (as I wrote here), I was surprised to see it file this early. Management and the board, as well as the unions, had seemed to be in denial about the scope of their problems (see the statement made in early October that bankruptcy was "not a goal or preference"). AMR seemed to be trying to hold out as long as it could. That strategy would have made liquidation much more likely than reorganization. Given the depth of American's competitive disadvantages, no reasonable lender would have offered debtor-in-possession financing. American avoided that problem by self-financing its restructuring with the $4 billion in cash that it still holds. Liquidation would have provided a big shot in the arm to the airline industry by drastically reducing capacity, whereas a reorganization means any benefits will accrue slowly over time." Seeking Alpha 12/2/12

 

[usa1]

Liquidation would have provided a big shot in the arm to the airline industry by drastically reducing capacity, whereas a reorganization means any benefits will accrue slowly over time." Seeking Alpha 12/2/12

In the end that's what will bring AA employees pissing and moaning to the alter. The judge will provide the shotgun, and it will be either liquidate or merger. Marry the ugly #$%&* or die .....

 

[The Phantom]

We are all better off just working thru this as easy as possible and getting it over with as soon as possible. Take the medicine with a little bit of wiskey and it won't taste so bad. I mean how much crap have the members taken for the last how many years??? like the TWU will actually fight for what is right for all of us. HA HA.
There's not enough members that will stand up together for anything in this union anyways so why fight the inevitable . If we all stood together on everything that happens, then we would have power, but that day will never come so lets move on.

 

[FWAAA]

To all the union members do not take concessions your union will tell you it's best if we give up cencession ourselves. Go to court and fight for everything piece by piece drag it out and fight you'll do better...

So your learned advice would be "refuse to negotiate so the judge has no choice but to abrogate the contract so the company can impose its terms."

I'm certain there's some advice out there that's more useless than yours, but yours is right up there in the "very bad advice" category.

 

[strikeforce]

I think what Harvey is trying to convey is that if you think AA will come into negotiations with a heavy heart and give us the 2010 T/A or something watered down, you're mistaken. AA is preparing the coloring books right now, and the first page shows someone bent over and holding their ankles, and the second page is too gruesome to talk about on this forum, but you get my drift. The choice is voluntary crucification or by the judge....history has shown that although losing jobs and pensions being absorbed by the PBGC, the workers actually made about the same as AA workers, and they had more holidays and got paid more for sick time and kept their vacations. In BK, I don't know how much weight is placed on past history....probably none considering how ruthless AA is. They have ONE shot at taking all....doesn't bode well for any of US, but doing it voluntarily is committing suicide, especially that Little Jimmy and his cronies don't have to live under those same terms. Now, if there's a question on that ballot that says, "by accepting these terms you also agree to decertify the TWU as your representative", I'm voting YES!!!

 

[OldBubba]

😀 😀 😀 😀

LOL!!!! Send me those drugs, some of you are on!
3 times with TWA and now 1 with AA
2 Pension with the Gov. Plus my Social Security

Your are a number. :angry:

You mean nothing to the judge. NOTHING!!!! :angry:

All the union groups well first try to negotiate with management, and then the judge well listen to AA. And do what AA wants. You have no power nothing. :angry:

And I hope USAir (IAM) buys us! ( not likely) Then you well know what it feels like to be stapled to the bottom and unprotected by a bunch of kids that are 20 year younger than you!!! Maybe the IAM well get even with the TWU give me my time back, and I'll jump to the top of the list. ( really reaching here LOL )

And last, you be gald to know I'll be the first to get layedoff!!!!! :angry: