do not take concessions make the judge take em

[700UW]

The part you're missing is that if the Union and Company can't come to an agreement, the Creditors can then make a proposal that the Judge can use to either accept or not. In that case who wants a completely biased group dictate a contract? Because of the Northwest BK, the Judge will not impose the last offer from the Company, they may impose the original "ask" from the Company which will be much worse than anything negotiated.

Your wrong.

I was on the negotiating committee for the mechanic and related at US, we never reached a deal, the judge abrogated and to keep labor peace we voted on the company's final offer, which he could have imposed, he was going to impose it if the vote failed.

I lived it your information is totally incorrect, the company files the motion under Section 1113 to abrogate and impose and the judge has a hearing on it, which I participated and rules on the motion in front of him.

The Creditors Committee has nothing to do with the process, they only approve the total POR which labor concessions are part of.

You really need to go educate yourself, because your posting incorrect information.

 

[NYer]

Your wrong.

I was on the negotiating committee for the mechanic and related at US, we never reached a deal, the judge abrogated and to keep labor peace we voted on the company's final offer, which he could have imposed, he was going to impose it if the vote failed.

I lived it your information is totally incorrect, the company files the motion under Section 1113 to abrogate and impose and the judge has a hearing on it, which I participated and rules on the motion in front of him.

The Creditors Committee has nothing to do with the process, they only approve the total POR which labor concessions are part of.

You really need to go educate yourself, because your posting incorrect information.

I'm sure what you say is accurate, but it was in 2005 or so. Things have changed since then and many rules and tendencies by BK Judges have changed since the Northwest BK, where it was argued and won that Unions can't strike during a BK. The United BK changed the pace of the dealings in order for it not to last 3 years as that did. The other difference is that every major airline has gone through a BK and they have the airline process down pat. Judges, especially in the Southern District, as more apt to "punish" a Union if they don't get a consensual agreement, given the opportunity. In order to make sure the parties bargain in good faith they have established that turning down a offer will not automatically mean that same offer will be approved. The "ask" from the Company will be harsh in order to establish a floor. From that point the parties can negotiate and if they don't come up with a deal it is likely the "ask" will be imposed and not the last offer presented during negotiations. The Court wants to make sure those sessions are not a waste of time for the Court.

We are 7 years removed from your experience and several bankruptcies later...things have changed to the detriment of Labor. (of course)

 

[700UW]

The process of Section 1113 hasnt changed, a judge ruled that an injunction to prevent a strike was legal.

Better go ask Sharon Levine, who is your counsel and was ours.

Your totally wrong, and our Bankruptcy case was in Alexandria, VA, basically DC.

And once again, the Judge doesnt make CBAs, he doesnt negotiate, he doesnt punish. He rules on motions put in front of him, I lived it, you havent and your posting wrong information, and pipe dreams.

Better go understand the Section 1113 process.

Only the company can present a Section 1113 motion, and/or a new CBA, either reached mutually or the company's final offer, a union cant, employees cant, and the Creditor's Committee cant.

I have no reason to lie or post misinformation, but what your posting is totally wrong information.

 

[NYer]

The process of Section 1113 hasnt changed, a judge ruled that an injunction to prevent a strike was legal.

Better go ask Sharon Levine, who is your counsel and was ours.

Your totally wrong, and our Bankruptcy case was in Alexandria, VA, basically DC.

And once again, the Judge doesnt make CBAs, he doesnt negotiate, he doesnt punish. He rules on motions put in front of him, I lived it, you havent and your posting wrong information, and pipe dreams.

Better go understand the Section 1113 process.

Only the company can present a Section 1113 motion, and/or a new CBA, either reached mutually or the company's final offer, a union cant, employees cant, and the Creditor's Committee cant.

I have no reason to lie or post misinformation, but what your posting is totally wrong information.

Funny you should say Sharon Levine. Where do you think this information came from?

 

[Barfbag]

Let's be clear --

It's the biggest thing on the docket to you guys, but just a tick-box to everyone else.

Tick tock - tick box - time and money. Our lives reduced to floating turds waiting for the Judge's flush - thank God for Airline Deregulation.

 

[Frank Szabo]

It's always possible I've been given bad information but - as I understand the process, the company boys have a "period of exclusivity" in within which to file a reorganization plan. The October 2005 alterations to Chapter 11 of the US Code limited that period to 18 months with a much narrower definition of what constituted grounds for an extension thereof.

United intentionally "screwed the pooch" for gain by dragging their feet (totally within the law at the time due to the pre-10/31/2005 filing date). Delta and NWA hurried up and filed also in order to get under the wire for the few advantages the older law provided and pave the way for their planned merger.

At the end of the "period of exclusivity" (and the end of whatever extensions have been granted by the court), the judge throws the company to the wolves (creditors) in order for them to come up with a plan to recover their investment in the company - very unlikely this will get to that point - supposedly, a plan is due in February (next month).

FWAAA or any other legal eagle - please correct my understanding if I'm mistaken re: these rules.

 

[Super FLUF]

Frank you are correct on the timeline. I did see somewhere that Horton stated that they plan on having a plan and exiting in about a year. As far as I am concerned, this is very telling. This seems to suggest that

- They already have some sort of plan in place

- This BK is closer to a "pre-pack" BK. IOW, they declared primarily to quickly achieve parity with labor contracts and leases. No significant change to the business structure. (No ill-advised mergers or parting out of the airline etc.)

***

The big questions that linger

- What type of leader will Horton be? A guy that wants to run an airline, or a quiet, invisible,incompetent cookie cutter exec like Ourpay.

- What vision does Horton have for the airline going forward? Does he want to make AA #1 again? If so, how? Organic growth? Merger? Organic growth and a merger? How does he plan to do it?

- Does Horton also plan on improving the quality of our product? If so, how? Does he have a plan to woo back Exec Plats that have deserted in droves to DAL and UAL?

- Does Horton plan on changing the culture at AA in a meaningful way? If so, how?

- Will the purging of incompetent and toxic execs continue, or have we seen the last of it? If they continue, who will replace them? Competent "Airline people" or will it be the same slash-and-burn Harvard/Wharton stiffs?

***

LOTS of questions that remain unanswered. When the answers to these questions start to become more clear, we will have a much better picture of whether or not this airline will rise from the ashes or be doomed to the ash heap of history.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Frank you are correct on the timeline. I did see somewhere that Horton stated that they plan on having a plan and exiting in about a year. As far as I am concerned, this is very telling. This seems to suggest that

- They already have some sort of plan in place

- This BK is closer to a "pre-pack" BK. IOW, they declared primarily to quickly achieve parity with labor contracts and leases. No significant change to the business structure. (No ill-advised mergers or parting out of the airline etc.)

***

The big questions that linger

- What type of leader will Horton be? A guy that wants to run an airline, or a quiet, invisible,incompetent cookie cutter exec like Ourpay.

- What vision does Horton have for the airline going forward? Does he want to make AA #1 again? If so, how? Organic growth? Merger? Organic growth and a merger? How does he plan to do it?

- Does Horton also plan on improving the quality of our product? If so, how? Does he have a plan to woo back Exec Plats that have deserted in droves to DAL and UAL?

- Does Horton plan on changing the culture at AA in a meaningful way? If so, how?

- Will the purging of incompetent and toxic execs continue, or have we seen the last of it? If they continue, who will replace them? Competent "Airline people" or will it be the same slash-and-burn Harvard/Wharton stiffs?

***

LOTS of questions that remain unanswered. When the answers to these questions start to become more clear, we will have a much better picture of whether or not this airline will rise from the ashes or be doomed to the ash heap of history.

Horton is most definitely the wild card as nobody has a clue as to his management style.

Along with Bob Owens, I too felt their was no way a filing would take place - nobody thought the BOD would grow a set and take any action but lo and behold - they cashiered Arpey after he wouldn't do their bidding - ie, file for Chapter 11 protection. That was surprise for everyone and all bets, at that point, went out the window.

I'm told the level of chicken poo has risen at the TULE base, no doubt in response to the supervisors becoming rather fearful of their positions. That would mark the beginning of a management purge as should have been done many years ago but after Crandall left, management was not held to the same standards as before. Management numbers also inflated - all the easier for those farther up the food chain to deflect any failures and blame them on someone else in a lower pay grade - ie, ready made scapegoats.

We shall see what happens - it should be rather interesting.

 

[eolesen]

The big questions that linger

...snip...

LOTS of questions that remain unanswered. When the answers to these questions start to become more clear, we will have a much better picture of whether or not this airline will rise from the ashes or be doomed to the ash heap of history.

I rarely agree with you, but do in large part with what you've said....

I suspect Horton will be more hands on. That's the impression I've got so far, based on the fact he's done some road shows. Carty and Arpey rarely left CP5, other than for oneworld meetings, press events, or Congressional appearances, a fatal mistake in my opinion.

As for being #1 again... Being #1 in size is a dubious honor. And I don't see AA being #1 in size ever again.

What AA needs to focus on is being profitable, and providing a product that people will be willing to seek out.

The rest will work itself out if you guys can achieve those two points.

 

[700UW]

Companies have always asked the court to extend the exclusivity period and the Judge usually grants it, it has happened in the US, DL, UA, and NW chapter 11 filings.

 

[eolesen]

UW, what's different from filngs past is that the 2005 law caps exclusivity.

120 days is the minimum exclusivity period, and the judge has discretion to extend similarly to what you outlined in the previous airline bankruptcies. Airlines tend to be very complex filings. A judge is under no obligation to extend beyond 120 days, but it's pretty widely thought that extensions would be likely granted to AMR as requested.

Under S1121, exclusivity can only be extended for up to a maximum of 18 months to submit a plan of reorganization, and another 60 days beyond that to solicit votes for a plan of reorganization.

If after the minimum 120 days or maximum 18/20 months, a plan still has not been submitted/voted on, then competing offers could be considered.

At that point, assuming there are others interested or capable of launching a bid not supported by management, anything goes.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

Wow! You couldn't be further from the truth...

Informer is not a TWU crony??
TWU would rather make a deal than litigate??
The 1113 process starts when the motion is filed??

Where is the false statement??

 

[Buck]

Informer is not a TWU crony??
TWU would rather make a deal than litigate??
The 1113 process starts when the motion is filed??

Where is the false statement??

1. Informer is far from a TWU crony.

2. TWU is there only to ensure that the members dues reach the anointed few.

3. I am going to guess, yes, as soon as the court clerk and or the judge are ready....

 

[Flying low]

I rarely agree with you, but do in large part with what you've said....

I suspect Horton will be more hands on. That's the impression I've got so far, based on the fact he's done some road shows. Carty and Arpey rarely left CP5, other than for oneworld meetings, press events, or Congressional appearances, a fatal mistake in my opinion.

As for being #1 again... Being #1 in size is a dubious honor. And I don't see AA being #1 in size ever again.

What AA needs to focus on is being profitable, and providing a product that people will be willing to seek out.

The rest will work itself out if you guys can achieve those two points.

Not so I want it to be number 1 in size again. It's been proven that once there, there is no where to go but down.

 

[enough already]

Informer is not a TWU crony??

I pretty sure you already knew that though...