Fence Agreements

[UWCactus]

It's clear that at this point, the two HP and US will hit the table now to iron out a fence agreement for Phoenix. From what I understand this a standard practice. I'm seeking information from the experienced FA's at US East. How do you handle multiple base transfers? What makes you decide on which base you'd like to fly out of? What is exactly is a fence agreement and how do people transfer into the base when there is one? If they transfer, do they carry global seniority in that new base? Exactly which FA bases does US East have and which ones are junior? senior? best flying? worst flying?

Just trying to get educated on the process and hope someone can help out.

 

[goodgirl37]

It's clear that at this point, the two HP and US will hit the table now to iron out a fence agreement for Phoenix. From what I understand this a standard practice. I'm seeking information from the experienced FA's at US East. How do you handle multiple base transfers? What makes you decide on which base you'd like to fly out of? What is exactly is a fence agreement and how do people transfer into the base when there is one? If they transfer, do they carry global seniority in that new base? Exactly which FA bases does US East have and which ones are junior? senior? best flying? worst flying?

Just trying to get educated on the process and hope someone can help out.

First things first Cactus - the fence agreement will not just be for PHX it will be systemwide- It depends on what you want to fly that makes the different bases best for some people.. All depends on your own flavor - You just have to step outside the box and try them out and look at their trip sheets etc., however don't plan on trying them out to soon because the west side is crying for a looonnnggg fence, crazy since we have alot of flying you guys don't!!!

 

[proudf/a]

It's clear that at this point, the two HP and US will hit the table now to iron out a fence agreement for Phoenix. From what I understand this a standard practice. I'm seeking information from the experienced FA's at US East. How do you handle multiple base transfers? What makes you decide on which base you'd like to fly out of? What is exactly is a fence agreement and how do people transfer into the base when there is one? If they transfer, do they carry global seniority in that new base? Exactly which FA bases does US East have and which ones are junior? senior? best flying? worst flying?

Just trying to get educated on the process and hope someone can help out.

Well first and foremost, I am sure if they are going to fence PHX, they will also fence the east coast bases. Yes it is standard practice. Ueast has 6 crew bases...in order of largest to smallest, PHL/CLT/PIT/DCA/BOS/LGA. With PIT being the most senior. PHL has more f/a's based there then PHX has. Most Ueast f/a's do not base hop. You cannot transfer to another base unless there are openings. Currently the only base opening we have are in BOS and LGA. A fence agreement means they will not allow any transfers into such base until the fencing time as past. Even once that year or 2 whatever the fence maybe, if there are NO base opening, you cannot transfer in. You can request a transfer, it will go on file. Yes when you transfer to any crew base you slot in at your doh seniority. The best flying is in PHL. They fly to every European city we service as well as all of the Caribbean Islands. CLT has some International flying as well as some Caribbean. The most jr crew base we have is LGA, followed by BOS and DCA. As I stated above PIT is the most senior base, most jr primary lineholder is 1981. LGA most jr lineholder is like 1998 or so. Worst flying? I guess that depends on your personal choices. PIT flying isnt so hot these days. LGA does a lot of shuttle trips, I personally dont care for those, however most f/a's based in LGA love them. As far as deciding which base you want to fly out of, I chose to stay in PIT on reserve because it is home. Most f/a's are in their respective bases because they live near that base, its an easier commute, they love the flying that is offered in that crew base. It is basically all personal preference. That is the beauty of having more then one crew base. I hope this answers your questions.

 

[Dea Certe]

UWCactus,

U East has crew bases at PHL, PIT, DCA, CLT, LGA and BOS. PHL and CLT are the largest and have the transatlantic flying. I believe LGA has mostly day trips and is the most junior.

People have many different reasons for choosing the base they like. Better trips, commutable, better seniority or just because they've always been in that base.

PIT used to be the "best" base as it had the most trips, best variety and it's truly a great airport.

CLT has lots of trips and is a nice airport. Nice, affordable hotels nearby for commuters.

BOS and DCA are smaller bases with lots of senior folks. Being smaller, they are "cozier" as most people know one another.

PHL, is well, PHL. Wide range of trips, seniority and just a barrel of laughs. Count on getting extra time going and coming from PHL.

At the peak, we had 12 bases. That's probably why we have so many commuters. Lots of folks commute from the Florida area. There's maybe a few hundred commuting from the west coast (California, Oregon and Washington State).

We also have quite a few commuters living in the North East.

My understanding of a fence would be not allowing transfers in or out of a base. That could be a double-edge sword for you guys. But, if it allows our new U West people some peace of mind, I'm all for it. I haven't heard of anyone eager to go to PHX.

Most of us are settled in at our current bases. Lots of folks would give their eye-teeth to get back to PIT.

 

[UWCactus]

First things first Cactus - the fence agreement will not just be for PHX it will be systemwide- It depends on what you want to fly that makes the different bases best for some people.. All depends on your own flavor - You just have to step outside the box and try them out and look at their trip sheets etc., however don't plan on trying them out to soon because the west side is crying for a looonnnggg fence, crazy since we have alot of flying you guys don't!!!

Believe me, not everyone in Phoenix supports a long term fence, just the people that are scared to death of being bumped. I think a reasonable fence period is up to 3 years. I"m simply trying to educate myself on this process from a varierty of sources of information. There is a lot of fear on the HP FA side as you all well know. Education is the key to easing this fear. Keep in mind....yes, HP FA's want a long term fence agreement, which probably won't happen, but that is mostly because they dont understand the process. Once people realize the reality of this situation it will ease their minds. I appreciate all of this information thus far, it's very very helpful. As far as PIT being a senior base...I assume it explains why people with over 18 years seniority are on reserve there? Is is they choose to be on reserve there or they have no choice but to be on reserve in PIT? HP FA"s hear this stuff and they don't understand how many people are actually in that base and why that level of years would be on reserve somewhere in the system.

One other question...if a fence agreement is in place and through attrition, there are 25 vacancies in Phoenix, how do those get filled? By hiring? By recalling? By transfers?
Thanks again everyone...

 

[Dea Certe]

UWCactus,

To the best of my understanding, if there were 25 openings in PHX (or any other base) they would be filled by people who had put in transfer requests by seniority order. If there are no transfers on file and people are needed, then it's the most junior people system-wide, involuntarily.

Some people would rather transfer to another base rather than be on reserve. Some would rather be on reserve and stay in their base. Your seniority number, system-wide goes with you.

Hope this helps. I'm not always good at 'splaining!

Dea

 

[l8rd8r]

It would be a great idea to have a head count as to who would acctually want to transfer into PHX. Most senor f/a's that I know have taken early retirement(they are still showing active since Dec is actual out date). The ones that have relocated in the east love it and aren't leaving.

Not sure on the openings in PHX. ..I believe they spread out the fflight time to other bases until fence is over. No new hiring though, My bets on rehire. Although, company temp forced transfers may not be part of the fence agreement. We really need to double check this. We lose our flexability if the company can still transfer regardless. We will be growing big out of the west in a short time is my guess.

PIT was the happening base, awesome airport (did all xmas shopping there when stores opened). The decline happened slowly. PHL was increased/PIT was decreased on flight time. Most thought it was temp. Imagine if the switch happened with PHX/LAS most would just commute. The juniors would take the transfer for better trips etc. Eventually the commute wears you thin and you relocate or quit. Some feel the demise of PIT was due to management trying to get the old old US F/A's to quit. Also many flights started using the RJs which took away the ability to jumpseat since there are none. Flights between PIT/PHL are full. We also have several crewmembers living in LAS who are not interested in PHX.

 

[goodgirl37]

UWCactus,

To the best of my understanding, if there were 25 openings in PHX (or any other base) they would be filled by people who had put in transfer requests by seniority order. If there are no transfers on file and people are needed, then it's the most junior people system-wide, involuntarily.

Some people would rather transfer to another base rather than be on reserve. Some would rather be on reserve and stay in their base. Your seniority number, system-wide goes with you.

Hope this helps. I'm not always good at 'splaining!

Dea

This all depends if there is a fence up at the time - they will call back invols which have 5 years+ at this point so no it wouldn't be the most junior people - because they will be slotted in at their DOH after the fence is down, and their are many people junior to them - I know we have almost 1700 invols and not many of them would ever come back, but if there are 25 vacancies in PHX and there is no fence then it will go in seniority order for x-fers .. then that could create vacancies in the cities where the transfers came from and they would recall from the invol list wherever the vacancies ended up at the end - after all transfers take place. From my understanding PHX is already short staffed and they will be recalling back EAST invols, those folks would be junior to some people wanting to transfer from PHL lets say, but there is a fence and that is the way it will go - at least until the fence is taken down... my guess 1year and a half.

 

[USAirBoyA330]

Funny thing about fences....they cost the company major $$$$ and are hard to maintain. Also, USAirways has never in the history of this company had a fence that extended beyond the operational integration date....NEVER. Now, while a small fence beyond that date is likely, I would not expect it to be more than 6 months to a year in duration MAX.

 

[DCAflyer]

I'm not sure they would recall invols first, before the fence comes down, if they have reserves sitting in the east bases. If there is an operational need, it might make more sense for the company to retrain and rebase junior actives, in which case they would have to slot in at their seniority. Once flying balances out, then the company might start recalling. I think we've been making this blanket assumption that invols would go to PHX and be junior until the fences come down, but that won't necessarilly be the way it plays out once the good folks in Tempe realize that we have reserves flying 30 hours in the east and getting paid for 75. Just a different perspective here that probably not many people want to hear about.

 

[DCAflyer]

Funny thing about fences....they cost the company major $$$$ and are hard to maintain. Also, USAirways has never in the history of this company had a fence that extended beyond the operational integration date....NEVER. Now, while a small fence beyond that date is likely, I would not expect it to be more than 6 months to a year in duration MAX.

USAirBoy... you are correct. It is my understanding from talking to Doug and Bill personally a couple of months back that Doug wants the operations intergrated as quickly as practical, so I wouldn't count on the company agreeing to too long of a fence. The 10 years that some were asking for is absolutely ludicrus and will never happen. Two years would be the extreme maximum, I'd say. I think we are looking at 12 to 18 months, and again only if operations can justify a fence. It doesn't just matter what the two AFA factions agree to, the company must also be on board.

 

[UWCactus]

USAirBoy... you are correct. It is my understanding from talking to Doug and Bill personally a couple of months back that Doug wants the operations intergrated as quickly as practical, so I wouldn't count on the company agreeing to too long of a fence. The 10 years that some were asking for is absolutely ludicrus and will never happen. Two years would be the extreme maximum, I'd say. I think we are looking at 12 to 18 months, and again only if operations can justify a fence. It doesn't just matter what the two AFA factions agree to, the company must also be on board.

I agree with you on this, a long term fence is out of the question. I think that up to three years will be considered, but probably not likely either. As far as integration, I fully expect the company to streamline this as quickly as possible, the ball is already rolling in terms of FA policies/procedures and common procedures.

 

[hp_fa]

I think we've been making this blanket assumption that invols would go to PHX and be junior until the fences come down, but that won't necessarilly be the way it plays out once the good folks in Tempe realize that we have reserves flying 30 hours in the east and getting paid for 75.

I promise you that won't be happening. The reserves are going to be worked.

 

[proudf/a]

Believe me, not everyone in Phoenix supports a long term fence, just the people that are scared to death of being bumped. I think a reasonable fence period is up to 3 years. I"m simply trying to educate myself on this process from a varierty of sources of information. There is a lot of fear on the HP FA side as you all well know. Education is the key to easing this fear. Keep in mind....yes, HP FA's want a long term fence agreement, which probably won't happen, but that is mostly because they dont understand the process. Once people realize the reality of this situation it will ease their minds. I appreciate all of this information thus far, it's very very helpful. As far as PIT being a senior base...I assume it explains why people with over 18 years seniority are on reserve there? Is is they choose to be on reserve there or they have no choice but to be on reserve in PIT? HP FA"s hear this stuff and they don't understand how many people are actually in that base and why that level of years would be on reserve somewhere in the system.

One other question...if a fence agreement is in place and through attrition, there are 25 vacancies in Phoenix, how do those get filled? By hiring? By recalling? By transfers?
Thanks again everyone...

There are approximately 245 lineholder positions, primary and secondary in PIT. If you cannot hold a line, you are on reserve. PIT has about 500 give or take a few active f/a's. The reserves out number the lineholders. If there is a fence and PHX needs to fill vacancies, I am not sure how they would handle that, they cannot hire to fill vacancies if we have f/a's furloughed. PHX will not be the only base protected by a fence. The f/a's screaming for a long fence better becareful what they wish for, because they will tie up the east coast bases for those former AWA f/a's that would like to come east to try some international/caribbean flying. In past mergers, fences have only been for 12 months. Here is a chart that I copied off our hub, I hope it helps...December 2005 Most Jr Primary Line Holder

BASE BASE SEN.# SYS. SEN. # EMP. # LAST L/H SID

BOS -- 181 -- 5577 -- 48895 -- 08-Jan-96

CLT -- 1166 -- 4011 -- 73017 -- 27-Mar-88 Non-Lodo

DCA -- 340 -- 5455 -- 46246 -- 24-May-93

LGA -- 144 -- 6344 -- 89111 -- 27-Oct-98

PHL -- 1542 -- 4598 -- 74091 -- 20-Mar-89 Non-Lodo

PIT -- 311 -- 1631 -- 54134 -- 06-Jul-81


Please do not go by the system seniority numbers because those include ppl who are off on leaves, dont pay attn to payroll numbers, because they are all messed up. Last L/H SID, means the most jr lineholder in that base. Non-LODO means we have f/a's that are language qualified for International and Caribbean. They have lines specifically for them, that is a seperate bid, and you must qualify for it.

 

[HP_JACK]

I don't think it will be looooonnng but just a few years to make everyone happy. Probably enough time to give our sked department a complete overhaul(wishful thinking) and trying to deal with multiple bases. Our people are scared but they will come around... give em time.