Flow through

[nycbusdriver]

Unless you're working as "fry cook" at Taco Bell (or an equivalent,) passing recall on the way down the list is a no-brainer. No need to deal with it for the time being.

It's very hard to determine what percentage will actually decide to return as they work up the list from the bottom. Most of those results will depend on how the seniority is integrated.

I doubt any furloughed pilot with a hire date pre-1999 will come back unless that hire date means something. If a 1989 furloughee ends up slotted below a 1999-hired US/West pilot, what possible reason could he/she have for coming back? At their age they would never upgrade and would likely never get off reserve. Who needs that? (Unless they are already living in a US crew base and are willing to take the pay/benefits/working conditions hit when they leave the Taco Bell.)

 

[FLYAWAY]

It's interesting that the "regionals" are wanting the flow through when things are good. Be careful what you ask for. The flow will work both ways...

 

[Dorf]

It's interesting that the "regionals" are wanting the flow through when things are good. Be careful what you ask for. The flow will work both ways...

Not if you are PDT. They only want the flow to work one way....up! They told the MDA pilots there was no signed agreement, "sorry, you'll just have to be furloughed to the street... can't come back down....oops, wait! there's a merger with AWA, we want in on it!...maybe we can work something out...ok, you can flow back, but to a new hire F/O position, we don't care that you were a senior Captain here before you went to MDA...Oh, and by the way, we'll flow UP before you, even though you are already on the US seniority list...OK!?!!?"

 

[chichi]

Not if you are PDT. They only want the flow to work one way....up! They told the MDA pilots there was no signed agreement, "sorry, you'll just have to be furloughed to the street... can't come back down....oops, wait! there's a merger with AWA, we want in on it!...maybe we can work something out...ok, you can flow back, but to a new hire F/O position, we don't care that you were a senior Captain here before you went to MDA...Oh, and by the way, we'll flow UP before you, even though you are already on the US seniority list...OK!?!!?"

Dorf, You dont speak for everyone at PDT...dont issue blanket statements for our pilot group. Most of us feel that the guys that went to MDA got completely hosed and that they should be able to flow back down to their respective slot and sen #. It states that in the LOA. There are only a select few @#$%%^$%^ pilots that have that negative attitude.

 

[NCflyer]

Dorf, You dont speak for everyone at PDT...dont issue blanket statements for our pilot group. Most of us feel that the guys that went to MDA got completely hosed and that they should be able to flow back down to their respective slot and sen #. It states that in the LOA. There are only a select few @#$%%^$%^ pilots that have that negative attitude.

I have to agree with ChiChi. There are many of us at PDT that wanted the ALG/PDT pilots that were at MDA to come back to PDT. I was told on 3 different occasions in discussions with my LEC rep that while the union was trying to come to some terms to allow the "flowback", PDT management was absolutely against any sort of flowback.

True or not?

I can only state what was personally told to me.

 

[Dorf]

Dorf, You dont speak for everyone at PDT...dont issue blanket statements for our pilot group. Most of us feel that the guys that went to MDA got completely hosed and that they should be able to flow back down to their respective slot and sen #. It states that in the LOA. There are only a select few @#$%%^$%^ pilots that have that negative attitude.

I agree that blanket statements do tend to imply everyone is the same, but that being said, when members of your MEC/committees make these statements, THEY imply it is everyone since THEY speak for ALL your pilots. If this is not the way the majority of your pilots feel, then maybe it is time for a change of your leadership if they truly do not speak for the majority. By the way, the LOA concerning flow back was never finished or signed.
Dorf

 

[PropPiedmont]

It's interesting that the "regionals" are wanting the flow through when things are good. Be careful what you ask for. The flow will work both ways...

First off, PDT has always wanted to establish a flow with US Airways. US Air shot us down multiple times back in the 90's about this issue. Secondly, things aren't good. If a flow isn't established it will be the end of a lot of careers at PDT. News flash, PDT has been shrinking since 2001.

You're right about the flow working both ways. And it should. We are all working for US Airways. Believe it or not, but PDT can only do what US Air tells us to do. The risk of establishing a bidirectional flow is definitely worth it when you see your own fleet size shrinking, falling apart, and not getting painted.

And lastly, why is such a big deal for US Air to offer preferential hiring to a pilot who has been flying in the Us Air system already. To offer a job to a employee that they already hired through a Wholly Owned subsidiary. How am I negatively affecting any pilots already employed at US Air?

 

[PropPiedmont]

Not if you are PDT. They only want the flow to work one way....up! They told the MDA pilots there was no signed agreement, "sorry, you'll just have to be furloughed to the street... can't come back down....oops, wait! there's a merger with AWA, we want in on it!...maybe we can work something out...ok, you can flow back, but to a new hire F/O position, we don't care that you were a senior Captain here before you went to MDA...Oh, and by the way, we'll flow UP before you, even though you are already on the US seniority list...OK!?!!?"

The flow that is being established right now is bidirectional.

As for MDA furloughees, that were former PDT/ALG, it was wrong that PDT management wouldn't give them the opportunity to come back. You should know why if you know how the mindset of our management works($$$$$$$).

From talking with my friends that were furloughed from MDA, they all seem fairly content. They would much rather be in the left seat of an E170 at Republic than back in the right seat of a poorly airconditioned Dash-8. Upgrade with a pay raise. Let's face it, Republic and PDT managements both suck. Neither company is one to be proud of. They both treat their employees like numbers. That's all we are to them is a number.

All of the PDT guys that I know of that were furloughed from MDA are either taking unemployment or taking CA slots at Republic. Some are even check airmen already. And they are happy with it. They will all be able to flow right back into US Air in 2007-2008 anyway.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Busdriver: I assume you're in the mix of 89-90-91 DOH furoughees. My take on the matter is that the list should be combined mostly according to longevity. It should not be DOH for two reasons: (1) DOH is out of ALPA's merger policy. In fact, it was specifically removed a few years ago. (2)DOH benefits most the furloughees, of which East has a bunch of and AWA has virtually none of. A 91 hire, for example, would have what....six years of longevity? Whereas that same pilot under a DOH scheme gets credit for fifteen years of seniority, two thirds of which was spent on the street. If West had a comparable makeup then perhaps DOH would balance out. But that is not the case and it would be very inequitable to use a system which grossly favored one group over the other. Straight DOH, given the fact that nearly half of one list is getting credit for nothing, really sounds like a windfall.

I'd like to know how East pilots feel about longevity versus DOH. Last December I non-rev'd on East (great experience...nice folks I might add)and I was struck by the grey walking around the terminal. I was also struck by the fact that I didn't see a single East pilot wearing three stripes on their blazer. Age should be one of the major factors in the integration but it seems to me that some of the East pilots are too focused on thinking that DOH is the only way to get credit for their age. Not true...not true at all.

Clear skies.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Busdriver: I assume you're in the mix of 89-90-91 DOH furoughees.

Actually, I'm not. My DOH is a few years before America West flew their first airplane. My guess is that I will likely have no personal dog in this fight, but there's no telling where an arbitrator will go. If the arbitrator rules in a similar fashion to his US-Trump award, I will be out of the fray entirely (as I was for that one.)

So I'm not going to weigh here on how I feel about it. I was just giving an opinionon how I think the US/East furloughees will react to any recall. Again, they are probably all hoping that they can get by with a refusal on the way down the list to buy time until an arbitration is awarded (however that may turn out.) The award will likely determine how many of our 1500+ furloughees would even want to return here.

 

[a320av8r]

Busdriver: I assume you're in the mix of 89-90-91 DOH furoughees. My take on the matter is that the list should be combined mostly according to longevity. It should not be DOH for two reasons: (1) DOH is out of ALPA's merger policy. In fact, it was specifically removed a few years ago. (2)DOH benefits most the furloughees, of which East has a bunch of and AWA has virtually none of. A 91 hire, for example, would have what....six years of longevity? Whereas that same pilot under a DOH scheme gets credit for fifteen years of seniority, two thirds of which was spent on the street. If West had a comparable makeup then perhaps DOH would balance out. But that is not the case and it would be very inequitable to use a system which grossly favored one group over the other. Straight DOH, given the fact that nearly half of one list is getting credit for nothing, really sounds like a windfall.

I'd like to know how East pilots feel about longevity versus DOH. Last December I non-rev'd on East (great experience...nice folks I might add)and I was struck by the grey walking around the terminal. I was also struck by the fact that I didn't see a single East pilot wearing three stripes on their blazer. Age should be one of the major factors in the integration but it seems to me that some of the East pilots are too focused on thinking that DOH is the only way to get credit for their age. Not true...not true at all.

Clear skies.

We (PI pilots) wanted relative position in the PI/AL merger but ended up with DOH. If we went relative position now we'd get screwed again. NO.
Most of us didn't get hired at USAir, we merged into it, get used to it, its your turn.
We all wear 4 stripes on our blazers because we have all been captains and aren't going to buy new jackets.
As far as the original post- I feel the PDT/PSA pilots deserve to be brought onto mainline if they want to- they've earned it...

 

[Furloughedagain]

Frankly, isn't this all a bit premature?

In 1999 and 2000 US Airways had to hire 100 pilots a month in order to have brought the 1149 "newhires" onboard.

That was a training float for the Airbus order. Unless there are significant orders planned (well in excess of the 25 E-Jets) that i'm not aware of, I don't think you will see off-the-street hires until the big retirement surge at the end of the decade.

Just my opinion from the outside looking in.

As for me, i'll pass on any Embraer position and at least the first narrowbody recall. Unless there are dramatic improvements in the retirement I will most likely forfeit recall rather than return at all.

Don't get me wrong. I'll probably need a tall, cold beer that night. Saying "no thanks" is going to be extremely difficult and somewhat emotional. But I have to be realistic.

I need to provide for a family. That means focusing on compensation, work-rules, retirement, and schedule. When I was hired it was no-brainer. Today it's a different airline.

Still, to have people contemplating flowthrough while so many of us have been on the street for 5 years seems a little optomistic. There are over 1500 of us after all. That's a lot. I can't believe people are already lining up to be furlough insurance or to staff the next training bubble.

Regards,
FurloughedAgain

"Friends Don't Let Friends Fly RJs - Stop SJS Before It's Too Late!"

 

[nycbusdriver]

As for me, i'll pass on any Embraer position and at least the first narrowbody recall. Unless there are dramatic improvements in the retirement I will most likely forfeit recall rather than return at all.

Don't get me wrong. I'll probably need a tall, cold beer that night. Saying "no thanks" is going to be extremely difficult and somewhat emotional. But I have to be realistic.

I need to provide for a family. That means focusing on compensation, work-rules, retirement, and schedule. When I was hired it was no-brainer. Today it's a different airline.


"Friends Don't Let Friends Fly RJs - Stop SJS Before It's Too Late!"

Sounds to me like you have the intelligent perspective on the situation. Best of luck to you and your family, and Blessings!