HERE COMES THE LAYOFFS

[rifbound]

View attachment 9326

LMAO, E board 567. Of course they know. Not! Well I'm sure they'll say anything right now to us to make it sound better. Fact is if the company gets the system protection and station protection out of our contract, guess what, they don't have to let anyone bump anywhere. And if you think the lines wants us out there think again. AA's gonna go before the judge and say, "we can't allow any bump and roll due to operational needs. It would take to long to train (re-train some of us) the disruption upon the system would be to great." They'll get it to. All the O/H guys at the others got layed off and no movement. Except for United I think. Maybe some of the UA boys can clarify that. Well, you can sleeep easier at night knowing Jim Little and the TWU are "fighting like hell" for you! It has nothing to do with the all the "dues" they're going to lose. No 12,500, no bump, and no job. Thank you AA. At least there's TAESL to save some of us.

 

[Bob Owens]

LMAO, E board 567. Of course they know. Not! Well I'm sure they'll say anything right now to us to make it sound better. Fact is if the company gets the system protection and station protection out of our contract, guess what, they don't have to let anyone bump anywhere. And if you think the lines wants us out there think again. AA's gonna go before the judge and say, "we can't allow any bump and roll due to operational needs. It would take to long to train (re-train some of us) the disruption upon the system would be to great." They'll get it to. All the O/H guys at the others got layed off and no movement. Except for United I think. Maybe some of the UA boys can clarify that. Well, you can sleeep easier at night knowing Jim Little and the TWU are "fighting like hell" for you! It has nothing to do with the all the "dues" they're going to lose. No 12,500, no bump, and no job. Thank you AA. At least there's TAESL to save some of us.

Management has not officially proposed Red Circling anything, instead they are going around feeding the idea that it should come from the union to line representatives in "off the record" discussions. Its a divide and conquer tactic, they want us to fight amongst ourselves. Not Interested, Seniority Prevails.

There are no "facts" yet, this is the company proposal, a proposal thats unprecidented on top of a filing thats unprecidented. Chapter 11 was to help struggling companies get released from "onerous " contracts , not to simply allow companies with $4 billion in cash, and climbing and $24 billion in revenue get what ever they want from labor so they can send their competitors into BK, and if the courts allow that to happen then workers must respond accordingly.

As far as the layoffs, think back, how many times we have heard of layoff announcements since we started negotiations? How many mechs have been laid off, hit the street because there was no job in the system for them? Of those who were laid off and hit the streets how long were they out?Those figures are made by some finance geek, not someone who actually runs the operation. One example is the company feels that by outsourcing unscheduled work such as fuel tanks ,thats done almost entirely on OT they can shed workers. Last Year the JFK OT liist had well over 300 hours OT, so figure three quarters of the guys worked that many hours, so figure the OT they worked allowed the company to work 37guys short. Under the proposal, even if they outsourced and changed the workrules JFK would still be 7 guys short. DFW had well over 1000 hours, that allowed DFW to run around 480 guys short. Mia around 100 mechs short.

What happens after nearly every contract? OT dries up. After 2001 we had guys complain that due to the fact there was no OT their yearly gross was around the same as it was before the raise. I'm not saying there wont be job cuts, there will, unless AA grows a lot, but they probably would not look like what AA is throwing out there, even if the Judge allowed the company to impose the deal, not if they expect to maintain their operation. (Rumor is that one of the reasons AFW is set to close is the owners already have potential buyers in line for the facility-Fed Ex was one mentioned). The thing to consider is if the OT dries up, could you survive on what the company proposes? The Medical alone would cut my real pay by around $1824/year, or around 90 cents an hour, it would take me till 2015 to get my net back up to where it is now and more than likely the medical would cancell that out, even if nobody went to the doctor. On top of that they want to cut out MRT, lowering your W2 by another $1000, despite their claim they were not going to touch our W2 income.

Under the proposal, in 2018 you would be making less per hour than you were in 2003. We would probably be better off to see the company liquidate and the assetts sold off because most payscales for mechanics top out in less time than the company proposes we accept, a proposal that would leave us in 2018 at $15/hr less than what UPS gets now. With the Pensions dumped(proposed), way overpriced Medical, the least amount of sick time, the least amount of IOD, the least amount of paid Holidays, the strictest sick time usage policy, the least amount of flexibility-no more PVs(proposed), the least degree of control over your lives(company proposal to limit bids and change as they please), and other seemigly punitive proposals this really does not look like a place I would like to be. With the pensions gone all I have is vacation and seniority to bid shifts holding me here, and money trumps that. IMO I would rather it fail than work under what they claim is "necessary", and start at an employer that treats its workers better, and at this point thats pretty much all of AAs competitors, even the LCCs like JetBlue and Southwest. Some would say "quit" but we would need for it to fail, because if it fails it creates more job opportunities as former competitors pick up the assetts. Like the way the demise of EAL and Pan Am created openings in the other carriers as their assetts were picked up. If AA gets this and does not fail then other carriers would be forced to compate with AAs lower costs, sending them back to lower Manhattan for more.

If AA were to offer the $75k buyout like UAL they would probably have so many looking to leave they would have to hire.

Latest reports are that Unemployment is below 9%. Most businesses have put off hiring as long as they could. I already recieved a call about an employer who is looking to hire around 200 guys this year. Word is that SWA will start hiring as soon as the merger is done, have already hired a few away from AA in Dallas, UAL is probably offering the $75k so they can clear their RIF list and start hiring new hires at the new hire scale, they also added a flex rate to their contract so they could get experienced guys where needed.

 

[tech2101]

Management has not officially proposed Red Circling anything, instead they are going around feeding the idea that it should come from the union to line representatives in "off the record" discussions. Its a divide and conquer tactic, they want us to fight amongst ourselves. Not Interested, Seniority Prevails.

There are no "facts" yet, this is the company proposal, a proposal thats unprecidented on top of a filing thats unprecidented. Chapter 11 was to help struggling companies get released from "onerous " contracts , not to simply allow companies with $4 billion in cash, and climbing and $24 billion in revenue get what ever they want from labor so they can send their competitors into BK, and if the courts allow that to happen then workers must respond accordingly.

As far as the layoffs, think back, how many times we have heard of layoff announcements since we started negotiations? How many mechs have been laid off, hit the street because there was no job in the system for them? Of those who were laid off and hit the streets how long were they out?Those figures are made by some finance geek, not someone who actually runs the operation. One example is the company feels that by outsourcing unscheduled work such as fuel tanks ,thats done almost entirely on OT they can shed workers. Last Year the JFK OT liist had well over 300 hours OT, so figure three quarters of the guys worked that many hours, so figure the OT they worked allowed the company to work 37guys short. Under the proposal, even if they outsourced and changed the workrules JFK would still be 7 guys short. DFW had well over 1000 hours, that allowed DFW to run around 480 guys short. Mia around 240 hours short.

What happens after nearly every contract? OT dries up. After 2001 we had guys complain that due to the fact there was no OT their yearly gross was around the same as it was before the raise. I'm not saying there wont be job cuts, there will, unless AA grows a lot, but they probably would not look like what AA is throwing out there, even if the Judge allowed the company to impose the deal, not if they expect to maintain their operation. The thing to consider is if the OT dries up, could you survive on what the company propses? The Medical alone would cut my real pay by around $1824/year, or around 90 cents an hour. On top of that they want to cut out MRT, lowering your W2 by another $1000, despite their claim they were not going to touch our W2 income.

If AA were to offer the $75k buyout like UAL they would probably have so many looking to leave they would have to hire.

They will find someone to do the work. Did you see what happened to us at NWA?

You are in some alternate reality. The operation will go on, maybe not by you or your peers, but by someone who will work for the wages imposed under the new contract.

 

[Bob Owens]

They will find someone to do the work. Did you see what happened to us at NWA?

You are in some alternate reality. The operation will go on, maybe not by you or your peers, but by someone who will work for the wages imposed under the new contract.

I did say that we would need to make sure AA liquidates before accepting such onerous terms. Over time I'm sure they could find people to do the work, it took NWA 18 months, the question is could they do it quickly enough to withstand a strike?

This isnt 2005. I got a call last night from a former coworker who said his employer is looking for A&Ps in Delaware. Not for me but I sent the info out to my members. I would leave the Industry before I leave the area as my wife has become the primary bread winner in just two years of working.

Where is NWA now? Besides in real terms (adjusted for inflation) NWA was offering the scabs more than what AA is proposing.

You left, how much are you making now?

 

[700UW]

How do you propose to strike when the appellate court upheld you cant strike upon a CBA abrogation?

Look at NW, replaced mtc overnight.

Look at AS, replaced the ramp in SEA overnight.

And even if you could strike, how many of your coworkers would actually walk?

If AA all ready contracted TIMCO to do some of your 757s, who know what AA has been doing for the past few months, in order to get vendors in place.

The chapter 11 filing wasnt something done at a whim, it was planned out months ago.

 

[tech2101]

You left, how much are you making now?

I am doing quite well actually. I am making far more now than a topped out Lead is a Delta (which I would be now if I was a scab).

I took a 66% pay cut immediately when I walked. I chose to take a job that was a resume builder rather than one that was a bank account booster. I had several jobs lined up before we went on strike.

It took me 2 years to get back to where I was when I left. I was fortunate, I was flexible and had my degree.

We all thought as you do now...that NWA would not be able to survive without us. The job market now is much more favorable to AA to get the work done elsewhere. That is the choice you will all have to make. Will you work for what they are offering (if you hold enough seniority)? NWA made mine for me. I am not a scab, nor will I ever be, so continuing to work for them was not even an option.

Good luck with whatever decision you make.

 

[WorldTraveler]

There are those who believe that NW's treatment of AMFA was part of the plan to sell the company to begin with... so, yes, there is very much truth to the fact that NW put itself in an unsustainable maintenance position.
What AA does with maintenance might also give indications of what it does... but the trend throughout the industry is clearly toward thinner and thinner inhouse ranks and as much flexibility as possible to ensure the company can survive downturns.
The fact that AA is getting rid of a whole lot of maintenance heavy aircraft in the next couple years and trading them for more fuel efficient, more balance sheet heavy aircraft only confirms that the focus is on managing costs in the finance dept, not on the line or at the fuel pump.
.
Aviation mechanics have one of the best ratios of transferability of their job skills in relation to their pay. There is indeed a great opportunity to build a new, more stable career apart from the airline industry if one chooses.
.
Your story Tech is not unlike what I have heard from other ex-AMFA mechanics at NWA.... they figured out how to adapt - probably wouldn't have asked for the change but wouldn't look back if given a choice.
.
AA people should approach the uncertainty ahead of them with the same mindset.

 

[Bob Owens]

How do you propose to strike when the appellate court upheld you cant strike upon a CBA abrogation?

Look at NW, replaced mtc overnight.

Look at AS, replaced the ramp in SEA overnight.

And even if you could strike, how many of your coworkers would actually walk?

If AA all ready contracted TIMCO to do some of your 757s, who know what AA has been doing for the past few months, in order to get vendors in place.

The chapter 11 filing wasnt something done at a whim, it was planned out months ago.

The appelate court did not rule that you cant strike upon CBA abrogation, it ruled they had to follow Section 6 as per the RLA as if the contract never existed. This ruling must be challenged because it is based upon a lie, its saying that the contract never existed. Its clearly an evasion of the RLA and directly contradicts the intent of the RLA that terms remain in place and only Congress can impose new terms and maintain the prohibition on self help. The RLA states that if Wages are changed unilaterally (and other than BK how can a carrier do that?) that we can resort to self help. While I read and understand that they can abrogate I do not see where the law says that they can "annul" a labor contract. Who did those Judges think they were, the Pope? In the appelate courts flawed decision they said that the contract never existed, which is a lie, it was a legally recognized agreement per the RLA that was in place for many years, the contract was abrogated upon request not because it was illegal or fraudulent or the company did not consent to it(actually if a contract is imposed that should be grounds for labors appeal against it)but because one party claims it can not live up to it. Plessy vs Fergussen stood as law for 50 years before it was struck down, Labor must not allow this one to stand either.

NWA spent 18 months recruiting and training A&Ps before the strike.

Hopefully if a court approved this everyone would walk, including you. If AA is able to set the precedence that its ok to file for c-11 even when you have plenty of money to pay your creditors and impose terms that are not necissary for the reorganization of the company what makes you think that your employer would not do what AA did? Drag out talks for a few years, thereby gaining concessions by not giving raises, then filing for BK again in order to compete with AA?

 

[Bob Owens]

It took me 2 years to get back to where I was when I left. I was fortunate, I was flexible and had my degree.

Well its been 9 years and we still are not back up to where we were, and we were not as high as you. If we agree to this we would not be there in 2018 either. If AA had liguidated in 2003, never mind C-11 I would likely be making more than I am now. We already took a 40% paycut, we can not take another 20% on top of that.

The longer this goes on the luckier you guys look.

My guess is that if we were to compare W-2s over the last 10 years, even with the layoff and gap, yours totals quite a bit more than mine.

As far as the job market I disagree, all indications are that despite high unemployment in the overall economy that there is demand for people with our skillsets. In the post 9-11 enviornment nearly every carrier dumped thousands of mechanics on the street, NWA lucked out because they were many available mechanics out there. Since then half the schools for A&Ps closed, many retired, many were recalled and many left the profession as you did, for good, and only peeking back on threads like this. At JFK they had to raise the starting wage above the contarctual starting rate to get people. Its not as easy as you think to get people who pass the drug and TSA standards any more and have the skills.

Yes NWA did replace and limp along , EAL tried that as well, both are gone now.

 

[johnny kat]

Bob Owen's line of thought is what I refer to as "the rub". Everyone will have to look at their personal situation and decide if they would like to continue working for AA. While many already have that answered for them, the remaining employees will have to decide if they can live with the cuts.

And people outside the industry do not have a clue why airline employees seem to have a chip on their shoulders. The only way for all of the hard times to go away is for the entire industry to quit giving away the product at a loss. If it takes consolidation, liquidation to get there the end result will be job security for the few remaining employees. I know many people who threw in the towel and left the industry, and most have regretted it.

 

[700UW]

AA's liabilities exceed their assets, they can file chapter 11, why dont you hire some lawyers and sue to stop the chapter 11 filing and see how far you will get.

And Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy code trumps the RLA.

Even you know that.

And the appellate court ruled the injunction was valid prohibiting self-help, the AFA chose not to take it too the Supreme Court.

 

[Bob Owens]

And the appellate court ruled the injunction was valid prohibiting self-help, the AFA chose not to take it too the Supreme Court.

Bad decision on their part.

So much for "The Fighting Machinists". Unions came into being by violating injunctions, if we do not learn from History we repeat the mistakes. Rolling over as you seem to promote just invites more abuse.

There is no means test for filing C-11.

 

[tech2101]

There are those who believe that NW's treatment of AMFA was part of the plan to sell the company to begin with... so, yes, there is very much truth to the fact that NW put itself in an unsustainable maintenance position.
What AA does with maintenance might also give indications of what it does... but the trend throughout the industry is clearly toward thinner and thinner inhouse ranks and as much flexibility as possible to ensure the company can survive downturns.
The fact that AA is getting rid of a whole lot of maintenance heavy aircraft in the next couple years and trading them for more fuel efficient, more balance sheet heavy aircraft only confirms that the focus is on managing costs in the finance dept, not on the line or at the fuel pump.
.
Aviation mechanics have one of the best ratios of transferability of their job skills in relation to their pay. There is indeed a great opportunity to build a new, more stable career apart from the airline industry if one chooses.
.
Your story Tech is not unlike what I have heard from other ex-AMFA mechanics at NWA.... they figured out how to adapt - probably wouldn't have asked for the change but wouldn't look back if given a choice.
.
AA people should approach the uncertainty ahead of them with the same mindset.

You are correct. There has been a paradigm shift in the airline industry as far as managing maintenance cost structure and capital. It started back in the late '90's. NWA was the last company to make a significant investment in maintenance of older aircraft. They did that in the late '80's and early '90's when they decided to keep the DC-9 for another 10+ years.

They had a great opportunity to grab a very skilled, out of work, group of A&P mechanics with an average of 10-12 years of experience. They hired a large group of Eastern Airlines A&P's and used them to do heavy maintenance on the DC-9 fleet. That saved them a great deal of cash.

Then we tossed the IAM and elected the AMFA. We gained a significant pay increase and got some outsourcing limitations added to out contract. At that time, the maintenance philosophy was changing along with the orders for new generation aircraft. NWA was very top heavy with A&P mechanics working in hangars that were all topped out in the pay scale. MRO's were on the rise overseas and here in the USA.

There was no way they were going to continue to pay hangar mechanics top wage (nor could they afford to and stay competitive) doing something that they can get done in Dothan, or Hong Kong at less than half the price. So they forced our hand and pushed the strike (I am not going to rehash that debate yet again here).

Like it or not, UPS and SWA have set the model of number of maintenance employees per aircraft. The ratio of on payroll maintenance workers at SWA is about 3.5; UPS is about 5.5.

AA has approximately 18 per aircraft (617 aircraft in the fleet and 11,500 mechanics).

Thomas Horton, who succeeded Arpey as CEO, said after the bankruptcy filing in November that reductions in jobs and flights were likely. At the time of the filing, American had about 22 in-house maintenance employees per aircraft in 2007-08; Delta was at 12; JetBlue at 3.4; and Northwest at .8. At that time, American employed about 15,000 maintenance workers, compared to JetBlue’s 471.

Link

AA will never be the same company it was before the filing. If it does become that again, it will not survive.

 

[rifbound]

AA has approximately 18 per aircraft (617 aircraft in the fleet and 11,500 mechanics).
AA will never be the same company it was before the filing. If it does become that again, it will not survive.

That math is wAAy off. There's 9619 AMT's at AA. But the second part of your statement is very true

 

[FWAAA]

That math is wAAy off. There's 9619 AMT's at AA. But the second part of your statement is very true

You're counting only Title 1, add in the others (Title II?) and there are over 11,000 maintenance and related at AA.