How much do you love LOA 93?

[Hawkhunter]

[ If that's what the fear is, then why hasn't your MEC just proposed base protections instead of separate ops? A simple straw poll over here would certainly lodge no objection to it.

Are you new to this board? what you suggest has been brought up here. All we heard was no way, binding arbitration,you had your chance, AAA got the windfall, cry babies, we will not change anything for you easties. Read some of the previous post by your fellow pilots. Go on the ALPO web board you guys control that one to. It is the same greedy responses. For the record, what you guys offered in mediation was worse than what I got from St. Nick so dont tell me you guys tried to work with us. I think you would be strung up by your peers if you suggest what you proposed.

 

[767jetz]

BS, BS, BS and more BS. Also blah, blah, blah and more blah.

Well that was an intelligent and thoughtful response. Thanks for validating my post.

 

[exB717Flyer]

What you and John McIlvenna do not get is that the US Airways pilots, to a man and woman, would rather work under LOA 93 and not let the Nicolau Award proceed than to have a new joint contract.

I'm sure you'll forgive us for not taking your word for it. Howz about you stop sabotaging the JNC process and we negotiate a contract and put it out for a vote and find out if you're correct? No harm in trying, right?

.... and for the record, every time John McIlvenna speaks he just makes the East pilots angrier and increases their resolve to do anything and everything possible to prevent the Nicolau Award from ever being implemented.

And everytime Stephan speaks it makes us wonder why you believe his deceptions. We believe ALPA Merger Policy has been followed and any attempt you make to extort concessions from us will fail. That's right, even though 400 of your pilots showed up to intimidate the EC we still know we're in the right. Your side underestimated us before the Nicolau Award yet you continue to underestimate us. You don't have as much leverage as your MEC leads you to believe. Sue everyone you can think of, decertify ALPA, whatever, eventually the Nicolau ruling will be implemented or this company will be no more. That's your prophecy to fulfill; not ours.

 

[Mr Furlough]

Sorry, but I beg to differ. Every person I know DOES have a problem understanding your "fact" (ie: opinion).

Age IS arbitrary, and so is DOH when applied across company lines. There are plenty of older pilots hired after younger ones due to prior career choices. Are you suggesting that all seniority be based on age then? I've never heard that one before.

No one expects to keep their seniority number when they resign from one airline to work for another. If ALPA ever creates a national seniority list and pay scale, that might change. But that's not the world we live in right now. I sure would have loved to keep my years of service at TWA when I left to accept a job at United.

Almost all pilots with the exception of the few thousand East pilots understand and accept the concept of slotting and relative seniority based on what you bring to the table. They also understand the difference between attrition from the captains seat as opposed to attrition from furlough or the right seat of a 737/A320. Most pilots with the exception of the East pilots do not feel their careers are a result of luck of the draw. Most understand that it is about choices.

Please, FA... you do not speak for the majority.

Aren't you speaking for the majority when you pose such suggestions as "most pilots think"?

 

[Mr Furlough]

[ If that's what the fear is, then why hasn't your MEC just proposed base protections instead of separate ops? A simple straw poll over here would certainly lodge no objection to it.

Are you new to this board? what you suggest has been brought up here. All we heard was no way, binding arbitration,you had your chance, AAA got the windfall, cry babies, we will not change anything for you easties. Read some of the previous post by your fellow pilots. Go on the ALPO web board you guys control that one to. It is the same greedy responses. For the record, what you guys offered in mediation was worse than what I got from St. Nick so dont tell me you guys tried to work with us. I think you would be strung up by your peers if you suggest what you proposed.

Amen Hawkhunter

 

[traderjake]

What you and John McIlvenna do not get is that the US Airways pilots, to a man and woman, would rather work under LOA 93 and not let the Nicolau Award proceed than to have a new joint contract.

Not true. I and a number of Captains I have flown with are furious that MEC for costing us thousands of dollars and with their flawed arbitration strategy.

For example, I spoke with a US Airways pilot today who is in his 20th year of service. This pilots career expectation pre-merger was to retire at age 60 flying the A330 number 41 on the seniority list.

The overwhelming probability is that without the merger we would have been liquidated.

Tell the truth Chip, 3 years ago were you thinking about how you would make a living?

We could have easily negotiated attrition due to retirement but instead we spent 2 years trying to steal the AWA pilots' jobs.

 

[AWA320]

At 254 sheep boy you will by more than one!

Funny little fella! Played football all my life never really got rid of the size. Still take on my sons and give them a run for there money 😉

 

[767jetz]

Aren't you speaking for the majority when you pose such suggestions as "most pilots think"?

I guess I am making somewhat of an assumption. But I think it is a safe statement. Of the 60,000 ALPA pilots out there, I don't see many running to the defense of the East. I also know what is being said within the ranks of the UA pilots, who are one of the largest ALPA groups.

But you are correct. I can't speak for everyone. Neither can anyone else.

 

[BottomFeeder]

Sorry, but I beg to differ. Every person I know DOES have a problem understanding your "fact" (ie: opinion).

Age IS arbitrary, and so is DOH when applied across company lines. There are plenty of older pilots hired after younger ones due to prior career choices. Are you suggesting that all seniority be based on age then? I've never heard that one before.

No one expects to keep their seniority number when they resign from one airline to work for another. If ALPA ever creates a national seniority list and pay scale, that might change. But that's not the world we live in right now. I sure would have loved to keep my years of service at TWA when I left to accept a job at United.

Almost all pilots with the exception of the few thousand East pilots understand and accept the concept of slotting and relative seniority based on what you bring to the table. They also understand the difference between attrition from the captains seat as opposed to attrition from furlough or the right seat of a 737/A320. Most pilots with the exception of the East pilots do not feel their careers are a result of luck of the draw. Most understand that it is about choices.

Please, FA... you do not speak for the majority.

Mr. United Spin Master,

First of all, you are also known and funny that the guys at United call you a know it all.

Second, As to the truth of majority. You need to call ALPA National and inform them. You would be a great source of information to them

Third, Who resigned? You did... not us.

 

[767jetz]

Not true. I and a number of Captains I have flown with are furious that MEC for costing us thousands of dollars and with their flawed arbitration strategy.

The overwhelming probability is that without the merger we would have been liquidated.

We could have easily negotiated attrition due to retirement but instead we spent 2 years trying to steal the AWA pilots' jobs.

Finally a voice of honesty and reason. Bravo!

Are you listening USA320Pilot??? Your problems have been created by your own MEC, not the West pilots or Nicolau.

Obviously this is someone from your own ranks who does not agree with you, and probably represents the silent majority. It is the same sentiment I heard on my jumpseat last week. Remember this post?...

FYI, I had a very interesting conversation for 4 hours in the cockpit last week. Turns out that a United employee who is part of a team made up of current and former captains working on special projects for the company, and is also a retired US A330 captain who flew for USAir for over 20 years, rode on my jumpseat. He had some VERY interesting insight into the workings of your MEC over his career. He confirmed what I have suspected about your group for many years, and let's just say HE brought to light the lack of integrity that has poisoned your MEC for many years. It's safe to say that he and many of his friends who are still flying for USAir are NOT part of your "vocal minority." And PS, he knows who you are. 😱

 

[767jetz]

First of all, you are also known and funny that the guys at United call you a know it all.

Hmmm... really? Oh well.

Second, As to the truth of majority. You need to call ALPA National and inform them.

Already did, thanks. Trust me UA ALPA is on top of this as are the MEC's of Delta and Northwest. Seeing this mess through to it's only legal and correct outcome is in everyone's best interest.

Third, Who resigned? You did... not us.

I see you missed my point again. DOH does not cross company lines. You don't work for the same company anymore. You all work for the New USAirways.

 

[nostradamus]

Trader Jack quote below

"Not true. I and a number of Captains I have flown with are furious that MEC for costing us thousands of dollars and with their flawed arbitration strategy.

The overwhelming probability is that without the merger we would have been liquidated.

We could have easily negotiated attrition due to retirement but instead we spent 2 years trying to steal the AWA pilots' jobs."


The post almost seems to good to be true, does it not?

Do you know what a trader is. You are being played with.

 

[USA320Pilot]

AWA320, Cactus, Junebug,

I guarantee you that John McIlvenna and the AWA MEC is under estimating the resolve of the majority of the East pilot's. And, what the AWA pilots need to understand is that they are not in control. In fact, I believe the AWA MEC's bellicose language has driven you right out of the process.

No one on the EC is taking the AWA MEC and pilot group seriously. And, why should they? You continue to thumb your noses at the EC, the Rice Committee, and Herndon's resolutons. Do you really believe that is a good move or one the EC respects?

Moreover, I believe it is important to note that as long as John McIlvenna and the AWA MEC continue to insult the East MEC, lie and demagogue, the US Airways piots will continue to hold the high road with ALPA International, and presenting the Nicolau Award becomes less and less of a possibility every day.

Finally, the EC and Rice Committee desire to find a realistic solution. Because the majority of the East pilots would prefer to live under LOA 93, if necessary, to prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented, and there is nothing that can be done to stop this, then for those parties desiring contract improvements they need to help find a realistic solutions to the problems.

For the East and West pilots who desire to have contract improvements I believe the first point that needs to be recognized is that the East MEC and the majority of East pilots will not agree to a joint contract if it means the Nicolau Award will be implemented. With this fact understood then the parties can look at realistic solutions, which could be:

- A spearate contract with separate operations that have shared growth (e.g. A340s, trans pacific service, EMB-190s, etc.) and shared scope protections,

- Or a joint contract with separate operations that have shared growth (e.g. A340s, trans pacific service, EMB-190s, etc.) and shared scope protections,

- Or if the AWA pilots desire Section 6 negotiations and the East pilots obtaining a LOA for "equal pay for equal work".

I believe these solutions are better than the internal fighting and turmoil that currently exists, which could last for a decade if a realsitic solution is not obtained.

Also noteworthy, if the Nicolau Award is passed on to the company I believe not only would there not be a joint contract to prevent its implementation, but the East ALPA decertification effort would happen. This would create significant turmoil because as AWA MEC Tania Bziukiewicz indicated an East ALPA decertification would delay the joint contract process by "at least two years." In my opinion, the decertification would delay a new contract even longer.

Therefore, for those pilots who desire a pay raise ASAP I believe the best option is to find a negotiated settlement that prevents the Nicolau Award from being implemented that creates a new contract with separate operations that have shared growth (e.g. A340s, trans pacific service, EMB-190s, etc.) and shared scope protections.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[767jetz]

No one on the EC is taking the AWA MEC and pilot group seriously.

This statement it false. It only represents the fantasy and hopes of a vocal minority.

 

[hp_fa]

AWA320, Cactus, Junebug,

I guarantee you that John McIlvenna and the AWA MEC is under estimating the resolve of the majority of the East pilot's.

What resolve? Didn't the pilots for the old US Airways cave every time? Weren't you one of the biggest cheerleaders?

In fact, I believe the AWA MEC's bellicose language has driven you right out of the process.

Want to bet?

No one on the EC is taking the AWA MEC and pilot group seriously. And, why should they? You continue to thumb your noses at the EC, the Rice Committee, and Herndon's resolutons. Do you really believe that is a good move or one the EC respects?

The DL pilots and the UA pilots seem to understand the situation. Of course you will claim they are simply misguided.

Moreover, I believe it is important to note that as long as John McIlvenna and the AWA MEC continue to insult the East MEC, lie and demagogue, the US Airways piots will continue to hold the high road with ALPA International, and presenting the Nicolau Award becomes less and less of a possibility every day.

Look back and see who started the nastiness and where it arose. I'll give you a clue. It started when East had a temper tantrum when they didn't get DOH and/or longevity. The arbitrator even warned your negotiators.

Finally, the EC and Rice Committee desire to find a realistic solution. Because the majority of the East pilots would prefer to live under LOA 93, if necessary, to prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented, and there is nothing that can be done to stop this, then for those parties desiring contract improvements they need to help find a realistic solutions to the problems.

Newsflash!! A realistic solution, post-arbitration, can only be ALPA National accepting the award. There is no other viable solution.

One more newsflash. I know everyone will be heartbroken, but I will be gone for vacation. I'll make sure to come and check this thread out when I get back, if for no other reason then to see if I joined 700UW on a certain poster's ignore list.