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Industry Standard Wages

Call me socialist, I don't care. I'm fine with that. There is two sides of the scale. On one side you can get higher wages for a ever shrinking pool and on the other you can widen that pool. I would prefer to make it somewhere in between. Right now you, me, Bob, Chuck, and Dave could probably profit greatly individually by saying let them outsource like WN or UA and give the rest of us $38 plus an hour. Then what happens when WN and UA shrink the pool of high paid AMTs by another 10% for example and raises pay 5%? Do we follow? If so, when do we stop? When Dave gets cut? Bob? You? Me? When is enough a enough to enrich the ever shrinking pool of high paid people funded by the ever growing low paid people? Isn't that what movements like Occupy and cries of Wall Street and Corporate greed are trying to stop. If we keep moving farther and farther in to the area of a higher average wage for a smaller and smaller group then we are no better than the AMR execs that took us in to BK.

That BLS website quotes just over 100,000 A&Ps working in the US. It was only 20 years ago that probably more than half worked well paid airline jobs with good benefits. The way many pro AMFA/AMP guys talk you are conceding that now only 10% should get well paid and screw the other 90% as long as you are in the top 10%.

I would like to get back to the well paid 50% range myself. If that's socialist then I'm guilty. I'm not willing to throw my lower seniority brothers and sisters out of job for bragging rights to the fattest paycheck.
It appears that just because you have belief system, that it is normal to take down those who do not agree with that system.

Is this a free country or not?

Even the thought of manifest destiny seems foreign to you.

If you want to work somewhere in the middle, go ahead. I am sure that Communist China has some A&P openings.

You speak of the Occupy Wall Street as if you believe that the membership cares. Just because Jim Little jumped on some other set of coattails to further his position, does not mean that I want to be a part of something that I do not have a right to vote on.

You speak of some senior employees as if they have control over the destiny of the rest. What if those junior employees want to have the freedom to choose.

If AMFA takes us away from the socialism and enables that freedom then that is the direction I am going and you can stay where you are and whine about those that have made it.

I want to add Ronald Reagan to Mount Rushmore and you would rather have Jim Little.
 
It appears that just because you have belief system, that it is normal to take down those who do not agree with that system.

Is this a free country or not?

Even the thought of manifest destiny seems foreign to you.

If you want to work somewhere in the middle, go ahead. I am sure that Communist China has some A&P openings.

You speak of the Occupy Wall Street as if you believe that the membership cares. Just because Jim Little jumped on some other set of coattails to further his position, does not mean that I want to be a part of something that I do not have a right to vote on.

You speak of some senior employees as if they have control over the destiny of the rest. What if those junior employees want to have the freedom to choose.

If AMFA takes us away from the socialism and enables that freedom then that is the direction I am going and you can stay where you are and whine about those that have made it.

I want to add Ronald Reagan to Mount Rushmore and you would rather have Jim Little.
So speaking my mind if it contradicts what you are saying is what?

"Socialism" or industrial unionism (whatever you want to label it) was a major part of the most prosperous period on record and was committed to better wages and working conditions for all. Now you are saying following an agenda of pushing down others for the betterment of a few is going to bring back the better wages for everybody? What? That doesn't make sense.

If pointing out the flaws in the craft unionism will save us all argument is taking someone down then...okay. Call it what you will. It doesn't detract from the fact that if the craft union philosophy is what you are educating people on then so be it but at least tell the truth. There will be fewer jobs that pay more wages. Not all of us will get one. The high seniority class, whether they want it or not will get it. Like I said, I don't agree with the philosophy even though I will benefit by it greatly and so will AA's senior executives. Just tell the truth, the airlines that have the higher wages for in-house staff also have fewer in-house staff per aircraft. If they vote for that then so be it.

Manifest destiny? This isn't the 1800's. The last guy that tried that was defeated in Europe during WWII.

China pays less than $5/hour. I never said go work there however we could do German socialism. LHT pays more than us, labor sits on the BOD, they have socialized healthcare, more holidays, five weeks of vacation minimum, a government controlled pension, and if the CEO allows the company to have a negative value and doesn't file BK he is thrown in jail. I could definitely go for that. One of the richest countries in the Europe is also very socialistic.

The Occupy movement has been invoked many times as the masses rising up against corporate greed not unlike the kind going on at AA currently. Quite a few people care about it. Marching on HDQ like the APA and APFA is a very similar type of movement against corporate greed at the expense of the working middle class.

Reagan helped bust unions, raised taxes, and provided the largest immigration amnesty program ever for illegal aliens. He is full of contradictions like all of us.
 
You are a recruiting poster for AMFA,I'm surprised TWU hasn't told you to
shut your pie hole!Your thinking has got us to where we are at AA ! bottom of the barrel!!

My thinking? Tell me how many members AMFA had at their peak and how many they have now? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

At AMFA's peak it was 25,000 members and now is less than 3,000 looking at the airlines they organized starting around 2000. Wow! 22,000 jobs eliminated so 3,000 could make between $38 and $42. Will you be part of the fortunate few? So like I said, approximately 10% get top pay at the expense of the 90%. If everyone is okay with that then we all deserve what we get.

My line of thinking was one that was advocating between $35 and $37 an hour while maintaining around 10% outsourcing like in the July 2010 TA. Your line of thinking is burn it down and whoever gets out alive will get a big sack of cash. The rest of the people? Don't get burned trying to get out of the building right! HA! Now that's funny Red, what a nice guy you are.
 
What's pathetic is your stance that everyone that is not a socialist
Do you believe that it is wrong to fatten that wallet? Does it bother you that everything you seem to espy is socialistic at it's core?


HEY Buck,
Sorry to get off-topic with this, but (last nite) I heard the BEST SONG I've heard in over a YEAR, from a guy from Wakema "OKLAHOMA" . Guy's name is John Fullbright / Song is "MOVING", I'm guessing from his latest album.

OMG, I thought I was hearing Bob Dylan and Woody Guthrie rolled into one !!!!

This OKIE is TREMENDOUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
"This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Overspeed. View it anyway?"
Ahhhhh!
 
So speaking my mind if it contradicts what you are saying is what?

No, you speaking the mind of others for them without asking them.


"Socialism" or industrial unionism (whatever you want to label it) was a major part of the most prosperous period on record and was committed to better wages and working conditions for all. Now you are saying following an agenda of pushing down others for the betterment of a few is going to bring back the better wages for everybody? What? That doesn't make sense.

I never stated I wanted to push anyone anywhere. It is your philosophy of holding those very people from a free choice, that is my issue. Industrial revolution and industrial unionism are two different things. Industrial revolution was for the betterment of society. Industrial unionism brings everyone in that society to an equal level even if some of those people do not contribute to that society. I believe the term "freeloaders" could be used to describe such people.

If pointing out the flaws in the craft unionism will save us all argument is taking someone down then...okay. Call it what you will. It doesn't detract from the fact that if the craft union philosophy is what you are educating people on then so be it but at least tell the truth. There will be fewer jobs that pay more wages. Not all of us will get one. The high seniority class, whether they want it or not will get it. Like I said, I don't agree with the philosophy even though I will benefit by it greatly and so will AA's senior executives. Just tell the truth, the airlines that have the higher wages for in-house staff also have fewer in-house staff per aircraft. If they vote for that then so be it.
I believe that every group is capable of flaws. I just have grown tired of the very representative I pay, not performing and certain individuals that are unelected living under the same conditions imposed by their inability to provide for the ones they represent.

Manifest destiny? This isn't the 1800's. The last guy that tried that was defeated in Europe during WWII.

It isn't the 1930's or 1940's either.

Manifest Destiny in Europe was an individuals push for power at the behest of the people. In this country, I believe it was a believed right of people to expand and grow. ( giving that the American Indian was still oppressed ) The socialistic TWU is and has been suppressing that expansion and growth for the last 30 years.


China pays less than $5/hour. I never said go work there however we could do German socialism. LHT pays more than us, labor sits on the BOD, they have socialized healthcare, more holidays, five weeks of vacation minimum, a government controlled pension, and if the CEO allows the company to have a negative value and doesn't file BK he is thrown in jail. I could definitely go for that. One of the richest countries in the Europe is also very socialistic.

The Chinese wage, is that calculated into our pay, as to bring it down to the masses?

Before you quote the German system, I would hope that you are speaking from experience, because I can.


The Occupy movement has been invoked many times as the masses rising up against corporate greed not unlike the kind going on at AA currently. Quite a few people care about it. Marching on HDQ like the APA and APFA is a very similar type of movement against corporate greed at the expense of the working middle class.

Yes and the Tsarist Russian was taken down by the revolution of 1917 and stopped by Ronald Reagan years later.

Reagan helped bust unions, raised taxes, and provided the largest immigration amnesty program ever for illegal aliens. He is full of contradictions like all of us.
 
My thinking? Tell me how many members AMFA had at their peak and how many they have now? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

At AMFA's peak it was 25,000 members and now is less than 3,000 looking at the airlines they organized starting around 2000. Wow! 22,000 jobs eliminated so 3,000 could make between $38 and $42. Will you be part of the fortunate few? So like I said, approximately 10% get top pay at the expense of the 90%. If everyone is okay with that then we all deserve what we get.

My line of thinking was one that was advocating between $35 and $37 an hour while maintaining around 10% outsourcing like in the July 2010 TA. Your line of thinking is burn it down and whoever gets out alive will get a big sack of cash. The rest of the people? Don't get burned trying to get out of the building right! HA! Now that's funny Red, what a nice guy you are.

Brother, Brother Its for the craft ! There will be jobs lost but look at the Good of the craft ! Sign your card today and dont worry about all those unemployed AMT's. We can make $40.00 per hr but there will only be 2000 of us left. Haha.. Geeze !
 
I did not thinking I was speaking for others. I was drawing some conclusions based on statements made such as jobs for money or money for jobs to put it very simply. The arguments seem to be falling in to one or the other camp. Your comment is duly noted.

Never said I was against anyone's free choice. Just an informed choice. Blaming industrial unionism for people being "freeloaders"? If you mean people who do not carry their weight within their class and craft then a union, avery union should have some sort of professional standards.

I have yet to see a union that is all things to most of their members. AMFA was supposed to have fixed things at UA and save them from the industrial union the IAM, they ditched them and went IBT when they did not perform. You do have your opinion and I obviously have mine.

I believe HItler called it lebensraum in the 1940s. I don't see how this has anything to do with unions at American but maybe you could enlighten me. The TWU hasn't witnessed the work force shrink disproportionally to the size of the airline. Every other airline has shrunk their work force and outsourced at unprecedented levels far beyond anything at AA. Why? Because instead of taking the screw you pay me approach which has not worked in the last 20 years the TWU tried an approach that sought to keep more good paying jobs in house. The July 2010 TA would have made us in that top tire group but like you point out, this is a democratic process and the members have a right to vote themselves out of a job.

The Chinese wage is part of the total maintenance cost for UA and DL. The El Salvadoran wage is also part of the WN total maintenance cost. As of right now and in the July 2010 TA, the Chinese wage was not part of the AA total maintenance cost. Deregulation is the one driving the Chinese wage in to the masses wages here in the States. The unions are against that, especially the industrial ones trying to protect good paying union jobs from being outsourced to China and other low wage countries.

Yes I am very much familiar with the German system. I probably did not capture everything but feel free to correct me. I especially like the apprenticeship programs in Germany which seems to be not unlike what we have to have in the US years back. Somebody thought working with your hands was not worthy of good pay and that all the money should go to college educated types with MBAs to maximize profits at the expense of the workers here in the US.

Reagan did not topple the USSR on his own. There were a lot of good Presidents that did a lot before him and Gorbachev certainly was on his way to opening up the USSR. Where is this conversation going really?
 
So now anyone seeking change and a better Union than the TWU is equal to:
Hitler
Chinese
Germans
and
Reagan

Amazing, I am simply a United States of America citizen using my right under Federal Law to choose the representation of my choice.

The issue is simple.

Many TWU members despise the TWU and want out.
The AFL-CIO has a no-raid clause that limits the options available.
If you want to talk about anti-American, speak with James C Little, and the AFL-CIO

And maybe the TWU saving all those jobs in exchange for concessions, when there is not enough work to keep them busy is why AA is in Bankruptcy to begin with. If you want to or must assign blame, go there first. Carty let the Unions run the Company, and this is the path the TWU chose.
 
You brought up expansionism in Europe in WWII.

Feel free to stay on the topic course at anytime.
 
Brother, Brother Its for the craft ! There will be jobs lost but look at the Good of the craft ! Sign your card today and dont worry about all those unemployed AMT's. We can make $40.00 per hr but there will only be 2000 of us left. Haha.. Geeze !

FEAR!
 
Overspread and nitrous nut seem to have a problem with increasing our wages to offset the increase in "negotiated" healthcare and pension benefits.

For further information and a look at Plan TWU: see

www.cpusa.com

Pay Dues

Members: Pay your dues here. $5 per month, or pay the whole year for $60. Low income members pay $2 per month or $24 for the whole year. Thanks, comrade!
 

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