Is SNA going away??

[JS]

Frequent flyer miles for award travel are not worth anywhere close to 2 cents for the airline. Passengers value them at around 2 cents because that's what it would cost to buy a ticket.

For the airline, they only need to accrue a liability equal to the marginal cost of transportation, which is on the order of $20 or so for 25,000 FF miles, or about 0.1 cents a FF mile. For MDT-SNA on UA metal, the 4,600 US miles costs US about five bucks. The five bucks is worth the codeshare in other respects.

 

[Bear96]

Chip''s view of the world...

If UA pulls out of a city, it is doom and gloom, an example of how terribly UA is doing, mismanagement and another bone-headed decision by Glenn, indecision, no plan, UA can''t compete, how The End Is Near, etc....

If U pulls out of a city, it is a good thing, will lead to higher yields and revenue, is a step down the road to profitability, another brilliant decision by Dave...

NOW I get it!

 

[Cosmo]

JS:

You''re right, my bad! I went back and checked US'' 2002 SEC Form 10-K where this subject was discussed, and found that US values each frequent flier mile at about 0.065¢, even less than the figure that you mentioned. Frankly, I never would have guessed that the per-mile liability amount was so low. Oh well, live and learn!

But forgetting about the negligible liability that US will incur for any US miles accrued on UA flights to SNA, I still believe that US will be able to retain only a very, very small amount of its current SNA revenues as most former US passengers will fly on UA or other carriers for their entire SNA trip. But I suppose that if all of the costs associated with those flights are reduced to zero, it is still a small net gain for US -- provided that the aircraft are re-deployed in a way that produces a better financial result than US achieved on the SNA flights.

 

[nycbusdriver]

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When we flew out of SNA several years ago, no carrier had specific gates. I believe the entire terminal only has 8 gates, and these are shared by all airlines.

I agree that it would have been better to keep the flights and have United do the ground staffing than to no longer have the flights. Is this permitted under code share and union contract rules?

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I''m not sure how long ago you were at SNA, but they have more than 8 gates. Not a lot more, but more; about a dozen, I think. Some gates are shared by a few airlines, but they are not all interchangeable for all airlines. The airline-specific computer terminals make such an arrangement nearly impossible.

The gates USAirways always use (1 and 2) are actually United gates, and both airlines'' computer terminals are at that check-in podium.

Your idea about contracting ground services to UAL for USAirways flights makes perfect sense to probably everybody but the folks at SNA who stand to lose their jobs. This contracting of ground services arrangement is often used when an airline wants to start service to a new city, but I''ve never seen it used at USAirways to furlough employees. I think USAirways may have stumbled on this tactic to rid itself of some employees, but keep the service via code share. Sleazy, ain''t it? What can one expect from "Frank Lorenzo, Part Deux: Just Call Me Dave"?

 

[phllax]

US had its own terminal it inherited from PSA that is just West of the current terminal. It may or may not still be standing, but as of 2 years ago it was, and still had the original USAir signage on it.

 

[N628AU]

The old terminal was torn down some time ago at SNA, and last I saw FedEx and UPS park in the ramp area there along with some RON aircraft. There are, I believe, 14 gates. US used Gate 1, the far south gate. Gate 14 is near the 405 Freeway if my bearings are correct.

 

[ITRADE]

[url="http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/online/airportdiagrams/00377AD.pdf"]http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/onlin...ams/00377AD.pdf[/URL]

[url="http://www.ocair.com/images/TerminalMap.gif"]http://www.ocair.com/images/TerminalMap.gif[/URL]

 

[RES87rno]

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On 6/26/2003 953 PM N628AU wrote:


The old terminal was torn down some time ago at SNA, and last I saw FedEx and UPS park in the ramp area there along with some RON aircraft.  There are, I believe, 14 gates. US used Gate 1, the far south gate.  Gate 14 is near the 405 Freeway if my bearings are correct.

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On 6/26/2003 953 PM N628AU wrote:


The old terminal was torn down some time ago at SNA, and last I saw FedEx and UPS park in the ramp area there along with some RON aircraft.  There are, I believe, 14 gates. US used Gate 1, the far south gate.  Gate 14 is near the 405 Freeway if my bearings are correct.

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You''re right. I am a displaced employee from Orlando however I worked both at LAX and SNA. They DO only have 14 gates. One mis-nomer I have been reading is the "24" employees. There ARE 24 employees however only about 7 are full time, the rest are all part timers. Since I only had 16 years I was cut down to part time, that mean''t getting up at the crack of dawn to work one flight, then going home for 3 hours and then coming back to work the inbound/outbound of the 2nd flight. Or if I didn''t get a good bid I would work the 6AM and then meet the RON that night. The full timers would try to keep busy during the day between flights, (checking for lost bags, issuing a few tickets, emptying the biffy truck, whatever it took. They are all a great bunch of guys and most of them are close to retirement. I love my co-workers at USAir and don''t want them to take this the wrong way, but since I went to work for myself selling real estate and not following USAir around any more, life is great, I''ve never been happier. Hopefully some of my old co-workers at SNA will see this and know there is more to life than just one job. To the rest of you who are still working for USAirways, I''m pulling for all of you to get through this, you''re a great bunch of employees and I hope management realizes that fact sooner than later.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Bear96 & DLflyer31:


Bear96 said: "If UA pulls out of a city, it is doom and gloom, an example of how terribly UA is doing, mismanagement and another bone-headed decision by Glenn, indecision, no plan, UA can't compete, how The End Is Near, etc...."
Chip asks: Bear96, with all due respect, can you show me where I made the statement above?
Dlflyer31 said: "Chip (or should I say Pollyanna), that's a very naive way of looking at it. While I'm sure there are a few business that might want to beef up their accounts, most just want to get to their destination quickly and conveniently. US is no longer offering that. Why fly MDT-PIT-DEN-SNA, when you can fly MDT-ORD-SNA or either AA or UA? Your routing requires a double connection..something most people would rather avoid. More connections just means more running through terminals, more chances of delays/misconnects and more chances of baggage being lost. Sorry, but US will not keep most of the SNA traffic. It will shift to other airlines who are more convenient."
Chip comments: DL, I fully understand the double connect issue, but that doesn’t seem to stop WN passengers who routinely double or even triple connect to travel across the country.
My point is there are a number of reasons that go into a decision to serve a particular market and load factor is not an accurate indicator of profitability. From a corporate perspective, not locally effected employees, the airline continues to fly the same amount of mainline block hours and is re-deploying assets into markets that management believes have higher margins. Isn’t that good management if it’s successful?
In regard to SNA, airport operating costs, landing fees, weight restrictions, noise abatement issues, the CWA/Fleet Service contract provisions, and the alliance all were fundamental factors that effected the decision to leave the market. But, what’s to say US won’t re-enter the market in the future in one form or another?
The bottom line is any airline must be profitable and there is often more information behind a decision that the front line employee does not access to, which could make perfect sense.
Best regards,
Chip

 

[DLFlyer31]

Delta announces 4th daily ATL-SNA flight starting Sept 1.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030630/atm007_1.html

Now I realize a large part of this announcement pertains to DL''s competition with FL and B6 on the ATL-LAX route, but even still I think DL smells US''s weakness.

 

[ITRADE]

Be aware also that DL runs 5x or 6x daily to SNA from SLC. So with 10 flights a day, there is the synergy to keep a fair number of people employed.

2x daily is a slightly more problematic issue.

 

[MarkMyWords]

Yep. It provides a consistent product on ALL flights to the west coast.

 

[BDLDFW]

[url="http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030630/dcm036_1.html"]http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030630/dcm036_1.html[/URL]

Except from above:
"In-flight Cafe-designated flights arrive and depart from 23 airports: Boston, Charlotte, N.C., Dallas/Fort Worth, Denver, Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., Ft. Myers, Fla., Houston, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Kansas City, Mo., Miami, Minneapolis-St. Paul, New Orleans, La., New York LaGuardia, Orange County, ..."

Is it really necessary to begin In-flight Cafe service to SNA when service will be ending shortly?