It is true CLT-HNL is no longer

[hp_fa]

Great circle mileages:

PHL- HNL - 4920
PHL- OGG - 4859
CLT- HNL - 4678
CLT - OGG - 4610

CLT is about 240 miles shorter to either island.

 

[HP2USFA]

The range of a 767-200ER is over 5000nm. Boeing listed a new 767-200ER at 6300nm. We're dumbing down for age, but the plane still has quite a bit of range to it. The routing you gave is stat. miles, the actual NM distance PHL-HNL is 4275. Again, well within the range of the 767. Might require a fuel stop during the winter months where the high headwinds add nm to the journey, but it has the legs. 🙂

 

[FWAAA]

The range of a 767-200ER is over 5000nm. Boeing listed a new 767-200ER at 6300nm. We're dumbing down for age, but the plane still has quite a bit of range to it. The routing you gave is stat. miles, the actual NM distance PHL-HNL is 4275. Again, well within the range of the 767. Might require a fuel stop during the winter months where the high headwinds add nm to the journey, but it has the legs. 🙂

BoeingBoy has previously posted that the 762s at US are not as long-range as those at AA and CO. Dunno if it's a paperwork issue or whether the planes would require modification, but suffice it to say that US' 762s are somewhat range-challenged.

 

[HP2USFA]

BoeingBoy has previously posted that the 762s at US are not as long-range as those at AA and CO. Dunno if it's a paperwork issue or whether the planes would require modification, but suffice it to say that US' 762s are somewhat range-challenged.

Indeed. 🙂

However 240 mile (208nm) is not going to break the bank. PHL-ATH great circle lists the route at 4375nm (5035 statute). That's longer than the PHL-OGG. So again, the 767 would be able to do it.

 

[hp_fa]

My answer was in statute miles, but that still doesn't make PHL equal to or closer than CLT.

What happens to those ranges when wind is added the equation? The CLT - HNL flight has had more than its share of issues with winds aloft. These flights also requires a minimum of ETOPS 180 minute capacity and that carries with it fuel reserve requirements that occur, with the overwater portion of the flight occurring after the flight has already flown a transcon from the PHL area to the SFO area.

 

[HP2USFA]

Egads HP. Yes, you win. I was wrong. CLT-HNL is shorter than PHL-HNL. Does not change the actual point of my post which was the direct response to the comment that the 767 couldn't do PHL-HNL. Which it can. It does PHL-ATH which is longer.

In any case, as to the winds. Headwinds slow the plane obviously increasing the time in flight over the same distance. There's a formula I couldn't even begin to replicate here, but basically it's used to add time to the flight based on the strength of the winds acting against the aircraft. I've seen some calculate it as an addition of flying time, I've seen some calculate it as an addition of nm to the total distance. In either case, headwinds lower the range of the aircraft as the plane travels slower and has an increase in fuel burn to maintain the same cruising speed it would without the winds.

I'm sure someone can explain it better.

In any case, it can do it. It manages to get back from ATH against the wind. 🙂

 

[hp_fa]

ATH-PHL is different because of the portion of the flight that is overwater and away from any suitable runway. According to Great Circle Mapper the ATH-PHL routing ** could ** be done under the ETOPS 120 minute rule. Link . The total time doesn't matter as much as the portion being flown away from a suitable airport, which in the PHL-ATH case would probably be Shannon to Halifax (or somewhere in NE Canada).

 

[HP2USFA]

I'm confused as to how that has any bearing on whether or not the aircraft could physically fly the route.

It can.

I'm not quite sure how many different ways that can be said.

ETOPS relates to the ability for the aircraft/engines to operate over water for extended periods. Special certification on the engines. It does not mean you carry 180 extra minutes of fuel. The plane can fly the route.

Because again, if the aircraft couldn't make the additional 202 miles difference between PHL-HNL and CLT-HNL it wouldn't be on the route to begin with. I know everyone's all up in arms about the fuel stops at the start of the CLT-HNL route, but at that time the headwinds were exceptionally strong, even for the winter and caused problems for just about everyone. Not just US and it's "short-legged" 767s.

The plane COULD fly the route. Whether or not it ever will is really what should be debated.

 

[700UW]

ETOPS 180 means the plane has to be within 180 minutes of land, basically meaning it might have to fly three hours on one engine.

ETOPS is an acronym for Extended-Range Twin-Engine Operations. Without an ETOPS rating, an aircraft with only two engines must be able to get to an airport where it can safely land within 60 minutes if an engine fails in-flight. ETOPS extends this "rule time" to 90 minutes or more, up to a maximum of 180 minutes. Obtaining an ETOPS rating requires certification of the reliability of an airframe/engine combination as well as an airline's flight operations and maintenance. Usually extra equipment is required as well, such as additional backup systems for electrical power. ETOPS does not require over-water equipment (e.g., life rafts) or additional fuel tanks, though these are usually required for the typical missions of ETOPS-rated aircraft.

And US would have to pay Boeing for the certification for the longer range operations of the 767-200ERs

 

[PHL]

ETOPS 180 means the plane has to be within 180 minutes of land, basically meaning it might have to fly three hours on one engine.

Well, not just within 180 minutes of land. It has to be within 180 minutes of an airport that has a suitable runway....

 

[700UW]

exactly

ETOPS=Engines Turn or Passengers Swim

 

[700UW]

From ABOUT US, its official

Q. I heard we’re suspending our CLT-Honolulu (HNL) service at the end of the summer. It seems like we barely gave this flight, which started in December, a chance. Why are we doing this?

A. Daily nonstop service between CLT and HNL, which began Dec. 17, 2009, will be suspended Sept. 8, 2010. The flight, which complements service between PHX and four destinations in Hawaii — HNL, Maui (OGG), Kauai (LIH) and Kona on the Big Island (KOA), is not forecast to generate the revenue we need to continue operating it and will be removed from computer reservations systems (CRS) this weekend.

Managing Director, Network Planning, Mike Britman explained, “Despite our efforts to make this flight a success, our forecasts show that we’re simply not going to generate the revenue we need to continue operating the flight, so we’re moving quickly to suspend it and focus on more profitable flying. We expect the flight to do well during the busy summer travel season, but we no longer believe it is financially sustainable on a year-round basis.

Mike added, “The cost of fuel heavily impacts this flight. Our expenses are higher than forecast mainly due to the rise in the cost of fuel since we announced the route last summer. Because CLT-HNL is a long-haul flight, fuel represents a much larger percentage of expenses than on other flights. The flight requires approximately 10 million gallons of fuel per year. Each increase of just 10 cents to the cost of a gallon of fuel adds about $1 million in expenses for us for this route.

CLT-HNL is also a leisure route, which makes it more difficult for us to pass on the costs of fuel to customers, who simply choose a lower fare on another airline or opt to travel to a different destination.”

US Airways’ planning group will evaluate how the CLT-HNL flight performs this summer and determine whether we should bring it back as seasonal summer service next year based on aircraft availability. While next summer is open for re-evaluation, our customers can still travel to Hawaii through our hub in PHX. These flights perform very well. In fact, in September we’ll build on the strength of these flights and maintain twice-daily service to HNL and OGG instead of reducing to one flight per day to each destination like we normally do for the fall season.

 

[700UW]

Q. Is it true that one of our flights between PHX and Hawaii will be operated by pre-merger US Airways crews?

A. Yes. Currently, all of our flights between PHX and Hawaii are operated by pre-merger America West crews on pre-merger America West ETOPS Boeing 757 aircraft. At the end of the summer, we will return one of these aircraft and would only have enough pre-merger America West ETOPS B757s to accommodate five of the six daily flights to Hawaii. To provide our customers with more access to Hawaii, pre-merger
US Airways crews will operate one of our two daily PHX-HNL flights on a pre-merger ETOPS Boeing 757. The other five flights between PHX and Hawaii will be operated by pre-merger America West crews and aircraft.

 

[Hope777]

Q. Is it true that one of our flights between PHX and Hawaii will be operated by pre-merger US Airways crews?

A. Yes. Currently, all of our flights between PHX and Hawaii are operated by pre-merger America West crews on pre-merger America West ETOPS Boeing 757 aircraft. At the end of the summer, we will return one of these aircraft and would only have enough pre-merger America West ETOPS B757s to accommodate five of the six daily flights to Hawaii. To provide our customers with more access to Hawaii, pre-merger
US Airways crews will operate one of our two daily PHX-HNL flights on a pre-merger ETOPS Boeing 757. The other five flights between PHX and Hawaii will be operated by pre-merger America West crews and aircraft.

OLD News. Mentioned in Post # 4 of this Topic.

 

[BoeingBoy]

ETOPS relates to the ability for the aircraft/engines to operate over water for extended periods. Special certification on the engines. It does not mean you carry 180 extra minutes of fuel. The plane can fly the route.

There's also fuel reserve requirements for ETOPS flights to consider. When winds aloft are unfavorable, a re-release point can be used to reduce reserve fuel. TA flights, having several possibilities for places to land during the overwater portion, can make better use of re-release procedures to reduce reserve fuel requirements that the HNL flight can't since there's no potential landing fields between the west coast and Hawaii. That's where the different ETOPS time limits come in.

Jim