July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

There's your latest lie, oh constantly lying, scum sucking POS in chief...

Jim

"constantly lying," yet you can't cite so much as one, even supposed "lie"? You seriously need help.

 

[BoeingBoy]

"constantly lying," yet you can't cite so much as one, even supposed "lie"?

And there's another...that's 3 in two posts...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Unless, of course, it's the Shuttle pilots. Then it's "Hold on, this is different. They should be integrated by pay rate."

In other words, the mantra changes to fit what helps the east the most. DOH with PSA/PI (interestingly, I was told directly by a former PSA LEC officer that they wanted relative position till the PI merger was announced and then saw the benefits that would come with DOH so took the short-term pain for the long-term gain), pay rate with the Shuttle, back to DOH for AWA. Yes indeed, some "principal" most easties have...

Jim

I don't blame you for the Empire integration and dont think it's fair for those that have, but did you spend as much time talking about the fairness of it as you have this one?

 

[Pi brat]

Nope - as 700 says, the ATSB-backed loan was paid back with the money from another loan furnished by GECAS, which itself was paid off with the money from a loan by Citi. That's the Citi loan MM mentions as being due for repayment in either 2013 or 2014 (I forget which). The ATSB-backed loan was NOT repaid with the money raised from outside investors for the merger.

It really doesn't matter except that an eastie took a swipe at the westies for AWA being the first to be approved for an ATSB-backed loan. Of course, you didn't take exception to that post...

Jim

I tell you what Jimbo, you let me tell you what to take exception to and you can tell me. Deal? I remembered AWA being the first to get a loan and didnt think anything more about the post, or care.

Maybe I was wrong about the ATSB loans but it happened after the merger was in progess and one of many. Wasnt that the one that also mentione US Airways? Would it have happened absent the merger? Who knows, but there is no doubt AWA benefiitted from the merger and it's funding

 

[Pi brat]

Guess you guys should have held out for that arbitrator. Oh well.

Nicolau was the guy we picked. His decision our list.

Vintage clear. Argue fairness until you can't, then go back to "that's the way it is". Oh well, I guess i'll accept that like you have the delay, because thats OURS too.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I don't blame you for the Empire integration and dont think it's fair for those that have, but did you spend as much time talking about the fairness of it as you have this one?

Yes, considering that the internet as we know it today didn't exist back then and there were no on-line forums devoted to airline issues like this.or the ALPA board.

How about you - did you have as much to say about the Shuttle merger and the "integrate by pay rate" fairness as you do about the unfairness of the Nic?

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Maybe I was wrong about the ATSB loans but it happened after the merger was in progess and one of many.

Believe it or not, two wrongs don't make a right. Repayment of the ATSB-backed loan was after the merger which happened on Sept 27, 2005. Perhaps you mean the employee integration, which is obviously still in progress, instead of the merger?

Wasnt that the one that also mentione US Airways?

I'm not sure what you're asking, so instead of being lambasted for guessing wrong, be more explicit.

Would it have happened absent the merger? Who knows,

Rhetorical question or not? Again I'm unsure what you ask.

but there is no doubt AWA benefiitted from the merger and it's funding

No doubt, just as there is no doubt that US would have liquidated without the merger. To some degree, that may have included selling chunks of the operation (like the Shuttle as a unit) and the contract provides protections for those situations, so every US pilot wouldn't have been out of a job.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Yes, considering that the internet as we know it today didn't exist back then and there were no on-line forums devoted to airline issues like this.or the ALPA board.

How about you - did you have as much to say about the Shuttle merger and the "integrate by pay rate" fairness as you do about the unfairness of the Nic?

Jim

Jim

Fair enough on the internet. I've said had it been around during the PI/US merger it would have been uglier.

On the Trump merger I thought ir was crazy to spend that much money to integrate around 150 pilots. I thought we should give them their EA date if hire. There was the issue of them resigning fron EA, but I thought that was a formality. When the award came out I saw that for the guy slotted beside me that I was in the 3rd grade when he was hired and he must be piased. Now I know.

But there was no T/A loophole to fight about and it was over.

 

[Pi brat]

Believe it or not, two wrongs don't make a right. Repayment of the ATSB-backed loan was after the merger which happened on Sept 27, 2005. Perhaps you mean the employee integration, which is obviously still in progress, instead of the merger?



I'm not sure what you're asking, so instead of being lambasted for guessing wrong, be more explicit.



Rhetorical question or not? Again I'm unsure what you ask.



No doubt, just as there is no doubt that US would have liquidated without the merger. To some degree, that may have included selling chunks of the operation (like the Shuttle as a unit) and the contract provides protections for those situations, so every US pilot wouldn't have been out of a job.

Jim

Im typing on a phone screen, on the beach, through bifocals and sunglasses and the boss just showed up. I'll try to make more sense later.

 

[eastcoast]

What is important is time spent on the job and time invested with the company. Not only is the experience levels different between a 10 yr pilot and a 1 yr pilot, but the time invested by the 10 yr pilot is more important

WHAT HE HAS ALREADY INVESTED IN THIS CAREER, COMPARED TO THE 1 YR PILOT!!!

breeze

Using your analogy of investment, you should be able to see the flaw in your reasoning. Different investments always produce different results. Some profitable and some not so much. Sometimes investors know when to take a loss and move their money (time/experience/etc.) where they will make better returns over time. Sometimes investors ride out a bad investment right into personal bankruptcy.

So you seem to think the person who secures a risky interest only mortgage, who subsequently defaults and loses his home, should be made whole again by those who made better choices and borrowed more conservatively, simply because the first person stuck out his situation longer?

That theory does not hold water. I chose to stick it out since at my age and position, the risk to benefit ratio led me to that choice. I CHOSE to keep my caboose hitched to this train, and accepted the outcome of binding arbitration. For those on the bottom, who stayed at the bottom for so many years hoping for a better return on their investment, and found themselves in the same position as they were, or worse, made a CHOICE. The west pilots who chose to work for AWA, made a better investment. The time for their return on investment is a function of an inherently better investment to begin with. Should we ask all the investors in Apple to fork over some stock and money to those who invested in Enron?

And let's try to remember that if their decision was based on attrition, the arbitrated award gave us our share based on a reasonable ratio. The "train" some refer to amounts to not much more than my HO scale model set gathering dust in my basement.

Now let's consider another number besides YEARS. How about DOLLARS. I can't speak for everyone, but this job is a means to an end. It is a paycheck and benefits to afford my family a reasonable standard of living. The quickest road to returning some of what was lost for ALL of us is a contract. The one that the Boogie Man wants you to believe is unattainable, yet is afraid (or more likely unwilling) to even try for or put out for a vote. Checking out benefits a small minority. Same with the move to the 330. It is insanity, especially when you consider that a contract would have gotten everyone very close to the same DOLLAR amount as checking out, and would have done so years ago. This fight was never about fairness, or LOS, or gold standards, or rational thought, or sensible investment, or attrition. It is all about ego, control, and letting junior pilots return on the backs of west pilots, all while being fueled by antagonism, peer pressure, censorship, and many other questionable tactics.

 

[700UW]

US got its ATSB loan when US emerged from the first chapter 11. Siegel was CEO at the time, so the merger wasnt in the works during chapter 11 part I.

 

[nic4us]

Sigh! After all these years now..well...help me out with all this.So...let me see if I have this right: You (of course) have zero responsibility for ANY of the actions of your legally elected union, nor do any of your west folks whatsoever, (who are indeed, held hostage to it as a condition of employment...just like with alpa), BUT, it naturally follows that, not only did each and every east pilot (personally, mind you) magically "agree" to any and all aspects of alpa's perverse proceedings, and, as I've been told here; apparently to even placing their personal "signatures" on all such nonsense, but are also additonally "honor" bound to "man up" and display personal "integrity" by just mindlessly bowing down to, and servilely accepting all such crap? Is that really what I'm actually being told here? 😉 If any of you even slightly believed your own BS; you would be bowing down to USAPA's sometimes bizarre doings...and be "honor" bound, and fully demonstrative of your "integrity" to do so! 😉

Oh! Sorry...I almost forgot to include that fact that everybody "owes you" something or other...especially the union you so despise, and wish to destroy 😉

ROTFLMAO....Seriously; this psychotic BS couldn't even be made into acceptable material for comic books 😉

Once again you totally misunderstand the situation, yet comment and show your ignorance.

1. The entire pilot group is bound to the Nic.

2. usapa owes every pilot in the group a DFR.....not just me.

3. If usapa negotiates a new contract, I am indeed held hostage by the terms of the agreement they reach.

4. If usapa breaks the law...or violates my rights under the RLA and the NLRA..I can and will promote my own best interest.

5. Who wants to destroy usapa? I know I don't want to go back to ALPA. I also know that AOL's goal is to OWN not destroy usapa. With ownership comes control....(Just as an aside before I reply to 700UW)...kind of like how AWA senior management OWNs LCC.

 

[nic4us]

That is one of the most ridiculous thoughts thrown around on this board. As YOU said, we hired Nicolau to produce a fair and equitable SL. We had already shown that we couldn't do it. Why did us not "changing our minds" have anything to do with it?

The Pan Am arbitrator said he could not continue the slot at the bottom of the list because the disparities in age and LONGEVITY would not be fair. Sound familiar?

Each case turns on its own merit.

PanAm may sound familiar....however, there are merits in our case that would be totally irrelevant when compared to another integration.

 

[700UW]

You have no rights under the NLRA, you dont work under that law, you work under the RLA.

 

[nic4us]

You have no rights under the NLRA, you dont work under that law, you work under the RLA.

Yeah...too many acronyms going on for me....

While I got you..just for my own info..I thought the ATSB loan was repaid by a larger group of investors...like a dozen different firms buying up the debt....are you sure it was just GECAS?