July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

Because the Delta pilots engaged in mediation and didn't walk away, they had more control over the final list build including the staffing ratios and the ratio categories to be used. That is what comes from making hard choices and staying in the game. Obstinance gets you a trip to the naughty corner.

As I said before, the East merger committee and MEC did not stay in the game. When they refused to modify their position they removed their ability to affect the final outcome. Mr. Nicolau, still a highly respected arbitrator, asked for their help to solve his problems. The East refused. Then they were upset with the solutions he derived himself. Who is to blame for that?

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. The east blames the Nic award among other things (west and management), but how did we end up with that award? The east ALPA people refused to move off DOH, that's how. The arbitrator repeatedly asked them to present a different method and they wouldn't budge.

The problem remains that the majority in the east still want DOH. With the AWA/US merger DOH is a huge east windfall. Straight DOH wouldn't have hurt someone in my position as bad because I was junior to start with. It would have decimated the rest of the AWA pilot group though. The east jihadists didn't just want DOH, they wanted it all, they wanted DOH for the furloughs too (surprise, surprise, most jihadists were furloughed or close), regardless of employment status. That would have screwed junior guys like me as well. In the end a select few in the east that gained control wanted to screw all AWA pilots. In the end though both east and west pilots got screwed.

The funny (kinda) thing is the pilots (senior AWA) that would have gotten hurt the worst by DOH, have faired the best with seperate ops. The people hurt the worst, would be the junior AWA pilots (no new hires out west) and the east as a whole (LOA is pathetic). I'm sure some will respond about the east's massive movement. So what if you're a captain, if you're making FO wages under a poop filled contract?

Bean

 

[Phoenix]

Unlike a poor union schlub like you, I can move from company to company and make money, and not be tied to some silly seniority list. I have my flight bennies, I don't have to be part of some collective dead union job. I can go from company to company with my skills.

You? Not so much.

LOL

If you are so successful why are you relegated to hanging out with union schlubs in order to insult them. Seems to me you don't have an entrance into the real successful clubs. Tell us true, do you dream about joining those that have umbrella drinks and caviar while cackling about union schlubs and the other less successful folks that think they are no longer schlubs?

 

[Phoenix]

Seriously?????

Are you so ignorant of ALPA merger policy that you would try and throw this BS out?

Nicolau did not work for ALPA national he worked for and was paid by aaa and AWA.

ALPA national set up the rules and stepped back. It was up to the aaa and AWA pilots to find a solution. So don't go blaming ALPA, blame the east pilots for abandoning your responsibility. Man up and at least accept the responsibility for your mistakes.

I can't accept credit for tossing Prater and his pals, but it was kind of you to offer your congratulations!

 

[nic4us]

Wake placed an injunction on USAPA, binding them to using the Nic. You have your head in the sand.

Judge Wake most certainly did....just ask the 9th circuit who references the district court's decision in their only comment on the "thorny question".


Face it PHX...and the rest of the usapa faithful....usapa inherits the contracts of the predecessor union, absolutely no doubt about that.

Contrat 2004...LOA93.. the TA..all still in effect and controlling.

The TA says the Nic...end of story. Therefore, all LCC pilots are bound to the Nic, unless modified by the terms of the contracts.


The little lawyer and the scabs in the van where/are so far off base it is laughable that there are actually morons so stupid on the east to believe the east pilots could dump the Nic by changing unions. Frankly, Seeham's plan has holes so big in it, I do not think Bradford and the van scabs really thought it would work...after all, we know for a fact from Addington evidence that Bradford had advice from other attorneys point blank telling him not to let it out what he was trying to do, because it is illegal.


So...who's head is in the sand? Mine, or the scabs who are intentionally delaying a joint contract in direct violation of the TA and a union's DFR?

 

[nic4us]

Yes,. but still don't think you quite get it yet, Hummel and his compass correction gang are going to screw all of us, east and west, Cabaittoni gave the company so much when he gave away the grievances and thats the start..

You are going to have put up a link or something...what are they doing?

What grievances were given away etc..?

 

[luvthe9]

You are going to have put up a link or something...what are they doing?

What grievances were given away etc..?

I know you are joking on that.

 

[cleardirect]

Yes,. but still don't think you quite get it yet, Hummel and his compass correction gang are going to screw all of us, east and west, Cabaittoni gave the company so much when he gave away the grievances and thats the start..

Oh so now you are concerned that usapa leaders are going to screw the east. You had no problem when it was just the west they were screwing. Welcome to the party pal.

Now you know positively that Cabaittoni "gave away" all of the grievances. That he got nothing for any of them. Would these be the 100 out of the 600 pending from 10-15 years ago or belonging to pilots that have died?

Try and think logically just for a second. Why would he just give away grievances with nothing in return?

 

[cleardirect]

I can't accept credit for tossing Prater and his pals, but it was kind of you to offer your congratulations!

Reading comprehension problem? I never congratulated you on anything.

Try and understand what I wrote. East pilots should have stay engaged and made a reasonable deal instead of trying to steal the entire deal. Oh well it has cost you all plenty.

 

[mrbreeze]

Captain Lyle Newman - USAirways

Captain Lyle Newman passed away suddenly yesterday evening, way too far from retirement and with too many things in life he still wanted to do.

Anyone who knew Lyle knew that he was a true gentleman, a dedicated pilot, a rabid Saints fan and above all, madly in love with his wife.

He had a great sense of humor and was a true wit. I was honored to be considered among his friends. He is going to be very sorely missed.

Blue skies and tailwinds my friend...

WHO DAT!

 

[HPearlyretiree]

If you are so successful why are you relegated to hanging out with union schlubs in order to insult them. Seems to me you don't have an entrance into the real successful clubs. Tell us true, do you dream about joining those that have umbrella drinks and caviar while cackling about union schlubs and the other less successful folks that think they are no longer schlubs?

Because I find this case fascinating. I've had discussions about it with some of the top labor lawyers in the state and they are all amazed at the arrogance of USAPA (and for a lawyer to be amazed at arrogance...is amazing). No caviar, just doing a job, have no desire to enter any club that exists in your fevered mind. I could make a lot more money than I do, but I work for a cause now and I make enough to be comfortable. I do like to laugh at how perfectly silly you entitlement east whiners are. Binding arbitration...you signed it, live up to it. You sold your soul to a collective union, individual thinking isn't an option for you.

 

[EastCheats]

Because I find this case fascinating. I've had discussions about it with some of the top labor lawyers in the state and they are all amazed at the arrogance of USAPA (and for a lawyer to be amazed at arrogance...is amazing). No caviar, just doing a job, have no desire to enter any club that exists in your fevered mind. I could make a lot more money than I do, but I work for a cause now and I make enough to be comfortable. I do like to laugh at how perfectly silly you entitlement east whiners are. Binding arbitration...you signed it, live up to it. You sold your soul to a collective union, individual thinking isn't an option for you.

I grew up in a family sitting of Dr's and MBA's. Both of my parents sat on the opposite side of the table union negotiators. My father went as far as expressing a "hatred" of unions so being a union member was not exactly a badge of honor.

I've been a union member for over 20 years, which includes the Teamsters, ALPA and pseudo union, USAPA. I had some intense family debates defending my union membership over the years.

Family get-togethers are a little less intense because I don't feel the need to defend an organization which does nothing to put an industry leading contract on the table and files frivolous lawsuits against it's membership.

 

[Pi brat]

Here is where you are wrong. Many pilots view an arbitrator's job is to measure your intensity, and thus they adopt extreme positions in SLI arbitrations. Also, many merger committees and MEC's don't have the guts to take a reasonable view and instead wimp out and take popular if indefensible positions. It is easy to pound your chest and demand the moon, but it does not serve your pilots.

An aribtrator like Nicolau starts an arbitration with a general idea of how the lists will be integrated but needs to work through the particulars of the case. If the pilots want a more favorable outcome, they help the arbitrator work through the problems and provide solutions. Taking an extreme positions like date of hire in this case did nothing to help, it only made the East look stupid. When asked to help come up with solutions, the East MEC chose to punt and abandoned the interest of their pilots in exchange for their own political survival.

In this case the arbitrator had several issues to define the case. First, the airlines were fairly similar except for a small international operation in the East. The East had much more longevity but financially the airline was in extremis, with liquidation the only alternative to a merger. The West had a more survivable airline but it certainly wasn't setting the world on fire. They were adding positions but the future for AWA was not all sunshine.

The arbitrator was going to make a slotted list of some kind. His problem was trying to account for the East's age and longevity disparity. He was asking for some help in dealing with this problem and instead of helping the East MEC abandoned their posts and stuck on an untenable position of date of hire. Therefore he had to come up with a solution all on his own.

His solution was to slot the East wide body F/O's above the 757 Captains. This was his way of dealing with the longevity differential. The problem was that he helped the wrong guys. Those senior captains were in their retirement jobs for the most part and whatever problems came with a slotting could be solved with a short term fence. The guys that needed help were the long time F/O's that were at the bottom of the list, either furloughed or close to it. The East should have proposed to slot up at the top of the list, but give the junior F/O's and senior furloughed pilots help by getting pushed up the list. Something like the Delta pull and plug might have worked.

This is why the East made their bed. Taking stupid positions in arbitration doesn't make you a tough negotiator. It makes you an idiot that abandons the interests of the pilots in favor of their own political butt covering. They had a chance to get in the game, help solve the problems along with the arbitrator and help the right pilots. Instead they cowered behind a politically popular position and abandoned their pilots.

Thanks for a very clear and concise view of the process. I can agree with it all, but my original reply was to the comment from Trader Jake that the results were ALL our fault. There was plenty that was our fault, as you point out, but Nicolau was tasked to create a list after we (both sides) failed in the rest of the process. He had the vague ALPA guidelines to go by and if you remember he says the the west didn't materially change their position either.

I'm glad to see you agree with me about the method he used with the East widebody F/O. That is the most bizarre of his award to me.

Maybe you guys learned from us, or were just smarter to begin with.

 

[luvthe9]

Someone needs to go to fuel school. http://www.reporternews.com/news/2012/jul/21/us-airways-plane-running-out-of-fuel-makes-at/

 

[Pi brat]

Believe it or not, two wrongs don't make a right. Repayment of the ATSB-backed loan was after the merger which happened on Sept 27, 2005. Perhaps you mean the employee integration, which is obviously still in progress, instead of the merger?



I'm not sure what you're asking, so instead of being lambasted for guessing wrong, be more explicit.



Rhetorical question or not? Again I'm unsure what you ask.



No doubt, just as there is no doubt that US would have liquidated without the merger. To some degree, that may have included selling chunks of the operation (like the Shuttle as a unit) and the contract provides protections for those situations, so every US pilot wouldn't have been out of a job.

Jim

I'm not even sure what the issue was, but my point was that both ATSB loans were paid off in conjunction with the merger process, not before. I don't know what money went where, but AWA did not pay off their loan with their cash on hand, or just their refinancing before the merger right? Wasn't that one of the points of the "cash crunch" that was pending, mentioned in the Nic award?

I found this, from ALPA:

http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/magazine/2006/May2006_painfullesson_p18.pdf

After America West and US Airways
merged in September 2005,
America West President Parker also
became president and CEO of US Airways
Group. The ATSB, which gave
its consent to the approval of the merger,
made a killing on the deal. A
month after the merger, the ATSB sold
its warrants for both America West and
US Airways and remarketed the guaranteed
loans to private investors without
the federal guarantee, earning the
Board $112 million of its more than
$300 million total expected profits.

 

[EastCheats]

Someone needs to go to fuel school. http://www.reporternews.com/news/2012/jul/21/us-airways-plane-running-out-of-fuel-makes-at/

More to the story:

ABILENE, Texas - A U.S. Airways plane had to make an emergency landing at Dyess Air Force Base Friday afternoon.

Flight 544 was enroute from Phoenix to Dallas - Fort Worth when it's landing was delayed at DFW by bad weather.

A passenger told us, as the weather delay continued, the plane was told to divert to Abilene.

Abilene Regional Airport manager Don Green says the pilot then had to declare a "fuel emergency" and landed at Dyess about 5:30. The plane was an Airbus 319.

It finally departed for DFW about 7:30.


US Airways Jet Makes Fuel Emergency Landing Near Abilene, Texas
Kenneth Holland | July 22, 2012 | 2 Comments

A US Airways flight from Phoenix (PHX) to Dallas Ft. Worth (DFW) last Friday had to divert to Dyess Air Force Base, Texas when the plane ran low on fuel.

US Airways Flight 544 took off from Phoenix at 12:42 PM and was appproaching DFW when flights were delayed due to bad weather. The Airbus A319 was circling in a hold until their fuel ran low and was forced to land at Dyess Air Force Base near Abilene at 5:00 PM.

The plane refueled and continued on the DFW at 7:30 PM.