July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[isvlives2]

I'll give USAPA credit for it's accomplishments:.

USAPA deserves no credit either at the top either. Both organizations have been terrible. The hard working volunteers that help the line pilot are who I thank.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I don't believe we have any furloughed east pilots.

Seven years post merger with all of the benefits that came with it, yes the east has no furloughs. At the time the merger was announced, which is the relevant point when discussing the SLI/PID, the east had 1,691 (33%) of it's mainline pilots on furlough. Placing any of those 1,691 furloughed east pilots above an active west pilot in a combined list would not just be a "leapfrog" of seniority it would violate the terms under which the TA was negotiated and of course the legally binding Nicolau arbitration which resulted from the terms agreed upon in the TA.

 

[EastCheats]

"ALPA and USAPA are terrible"

Do you think APA will be any better?

 

[nic4us]

Seven years post merger with all of the benefits that came with it, yes the east has no furloughs. At the time the merger was announced, which is the relevant point when discussing the SLI/PID, the east had 1,691 (33%) of it's mainline pilots on furlough. Placing any of those 1,691 furloughed east pilots above an active west pilot in a combined list would not just be a "leapfrog" of seniority it would violate the terms under which the TA was negotiated and of course the legally binding Nicolau arbitration which resulted from the terms agreed upon in the TA.

Further,

There are currently no West pilots furloughed who have not been offered recall and choose to bypass as per their contractual rights.

However, there was a seniority violation and a theft of jobs when the scab union petitioned the company to allow recall to the east out of seniority order.

 

[767jetz]

Would Delta, United, American, or Northwest pilots accept your kind of shite, losing 15 yrs of seniority and call it ok regardless of who their union rep was?

Actually, yes. It's called binding arbitration.

Delta/NW accepted it. So will UA/CO. Watch and see. There will be no civil war. We've all already accepted that whatever comes from arbitration. We will argue our cases to the arbitrator, live with the final decision, and move on with our lives.

You are in your situation because you hamstrung your merger committee with unattainable demands and left no other ideas on the table. Period.

 

[767jetz]

We don't know what the UAL/ CAL will be. Could be the same

Similar probably, but not the same. The biggest difference being that neither UA or CO was in bankruptcy and both were turning a profit at the time of the merger.

The interesting thing will be to see how the furloughs are dealt with. Historically they go behind working pilots, so I don't hold any false hope for them. However the big wild card is how the arbitrator handles the new merger policy. ALPA has added LOS to the list of criteria that should be considered. We will be the first merger to test that. "Consider" does not mean there will be any adjustments. It only means he will look at the circumstances. Which means as a '97 hire I could very easily end up on the list next to a 2005 hire at CO. Oh well. I'm fine with that and prepared to accept the final award.

 

[767jetz]

ALPA deserves no credit. The two pilot groups do.

I can't believe the Bull $h!t that flows from you guys. What's even more unbelievable is that you actually believe your own BS.

So here we go again. When ALPA achieves an industry leading contract, the credit all goes to the UA and CO pilot groups since we are in ultimate charge of the process and our destiny.

But when it doesn't go the way you want, it's not the responsibility of your own pilots who ultimately control the outcome. It suddenly becomes ALPA National's fault.

Nothing but a bunch of cry baby hypocrites.

 

[cleardirect]

ALPA deserves no credit. The two pilot groups do.

How can that be? The east pilots have said it was ALPA's fault they ended up with the Nicolau.

So which is it. ALPA fault or the east pilots fault you got Nicolau?
Is it ALPA credit they got a contract or the pilots?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[cleardirect]

Similar probably, but not the same. The biggest difference being that neither UA or CO was in bankruptcy and both were turning a profit at the time of the merger.

The interesting thing will be to see how the furloughs are dealt with. Historically they go behind working pilots, so I don't hold any false hope for them. However the big wild card is how the arbitrator handles the new merger policy. ALPA has added LOS to the list of criteria that should be considered. We will be the first merger to test that. "Consider" does not mean there will be any adjustments. It only means he will look at the circumstances. Which means as a '97 hire I could very easily end up on the list next to a 2005 hire at CO. Oh well. I'm fine with that and prepared to accept the final award.

What is the PID for the UAL/CAL merger?

What date was ALPA merger policy changed? Before or after? If changed after the PID I don't think it will apply. They should have to use the policy that was in place at the time.

 

[nevergiveup]

Seven years post merger with all of the benefits that came with it, yes the east has no furloughs. At the time the merger was announced, which is the relevant point when discussing the SLI/PID, the east had 1,691 (33%) of it's mainline pilots on furlough. Placing any of those 1,691 furloughed east pilots above an active west pilot in a combined list would not just be a "leapfrog" of seniority it would violate the terms under which the TA was negotiated and of course the legally binding Nicolau arbitration which resulted from the terms agreed upon in the TA.

Stomp on a guy while he's down and take advantage of it. I'm so impressed! I hope you never have to pay your dues.

 

[nic4us]

You already had a steaming pile of shite of a career in place and wanted to leap frog your stinking careers over several years of experience and seniority, which caused the whole thing to rot even more!

Why would anyone accept this kind of BS? Would Delta, United, American, or Northwest pilots accept your kind of shite, losing 15 yrs of seniority and call it ok regardless of who their union rep was? Hell no!

Your greed at wanting to leap frog has as much to do with this problem as anything else, period!


breeze

Hey breeze......you are rationalizing the scab tactics...nothing more.

But, lets just say my career was a steaming pile of cow dung.....the difference between my career and your career was mine was still steaming and could be used to fertilize future growth or dried and used as fuel in the merger forge. Now the 17 year guy who had 6 years LOS had a career that left the cow's sphincter so long ago it had already been ravaged by maggots and had no useful purpose.


Lets make one thing perfectly clear.

It is the east that wishes to renege and steal from the West. You have a scab union intent on seniority theft, and a company benefiting and therefore complicit in your scab behavior.

 

[nic4us]

Stomp on a guy while he's down and take advantage of it. I'm so impressed! I hope you never have to pay your dues.

This is another bunch of BS that keeps coming up.

Nobody took advantage of you. You failed to take advantage of opportunities and ended up in a position greater than you would have achieved if simply left to your own lackadaisical attitude.

As far as paying dues....please take that sentiment to the next BPR meeting and see if you can get the scabs to stop collecting extortion money from the West pilot group.

 

[traderjake]

Why would anyone accept this kind of BS? Would Delta, United, American, or Northwest pilots accept your kind of shite, losing 15 yrs of seniority and call it ok regardless of who their union rep was? Hell no!

Your greed at wanting to leap frog has as much to do with this problem as anything else, period!

You got it exactly backward.

You want a furloughed or Reserve F/O to leap frog a Captain with a block on the same airplane.

The problem is the greed and stupidity of the East that claim longevity is seniority.

Four seniority arbitrations in a row say you're wrong.

 

[nic4us]

Actually, yes. It's called binding arbitration.

Delta/NW accepted it. So will UA/CO. Watch and see. There will be no civil war. We've all already accepted that whatever comes from arbitration. We will argue our cases to the arbitrator, live with the final decision, and move on with our lives.

You are in your situation because you hamstrung your merger committee with unattainable demands and left no other ideas on the table. Period.

Congrats on the tentative agreement.

Do you think it will pass or get the old turn down the first offer vote?


Also, the east is ranked on the Nic in the manner they are, not because they would not come off of DOH, but because Nic gave them a fair integration regardless of their stubborn attitude.

 

[nic4us]

Similar probably, but not the same. The biggest difference being that neither UA or CO was in bankruptcy and both were turning a profit at the time of the merger.

The interesting thing will be to see how the furloughs are dealt with. Historically they go behind working pilots, so I don't hold any false hope for them. However the big wild card is how the arbitrator handles the new merger policy. ALPA has added LOS to the list of criteria that should be considered. We will be the first merger to test that. "Consider" does not mean there will be any adjustments. It only means he will look at the circumstances. Which means as a '97 hire I could very easily end up on the list next to a 2005 hire at CO. Oh well. I'm fine with that and prepared to accept the final award.

Do both sides have furloughs?