July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

Every East pilot gained in % on the Nic. list. Seniority apparently IS fluid because even Nicalau allowed it to flow to the East.

The scabs are not content with the gain in seniority that Nic gave them....

Funny unique thing about matter in the liquid state...its hard to hold on to...the scabs are going to learn a valuable lesson about the fluid seniority they stole from the West.

 

[nic4us]

You guys were on bankruptcy #2 and had a foot deep in Chap 7.

We were no where near even filing for bankruptcy.

Your death was imminent - ours wasn't.

That's why you guys never got your parity. Your own guys had no leverage to go to the table with because walking away from the deal meant you were on the street.

If we walked away from the table, it would have been status quo for us because we had an airline to go back to.

So...I am tracking a flight the other night on flightaware...and am reminded of just exactly who bought who by the AWE designator. Then I flew past the corporate tower in Tempe using the same call sign I have used for decades in an airplane that was delivered as part of the order that now allows east scabs to steal West jobs.

There is just no telling what might have happened absent the merger, but it is easy to read the 20/20 hindsight tea leaves. The east formed a scab union, and begs for scraps at the corporate table...end of story.

 

[traderjake]

Depends which end of the seniority list you are sitting on. Some kind of credit should be given for longevity. It's just not right to see over a decade of service thrown to the wind.

Which end of the seniority list you're sitting on determines what your seniority is.

I say we should have gotten some kind of credit for our retirement attrition.

We asked for neither even after being told we weren't getting DOH and to ask for something else.

End of story.

 

[luvn737s]

Depends which end of the seniority list you are sitting on. Some kind of credit should be given for longevity. It's just not right to see over a decade of service thrown to the wind.

Driver...

Where would that come from? At the present, it is a zero sum game and to give to the east, you must take from the west. The loss of that decade, no matter how tragic, is a result of pre-merger decisions and should be quarantined. Nic did that.

USAPA was formed to circumvent the TA restrictions that were set up to prevent the majority from hijacking the mutually agreed-to process. When that crossed the line into prohibited activity (DFR) the west had to look to the courts. While they were basically told to come back after the trigger had been pulled, the courts still agreed that there clearly was intent to harm the west, just that there was no remedy for intent.

 

[A320 Driver]

You guys were on bankruptcy #2 and had a foot deep in Chap 7.

We were no where near even filing for bankruptcy.

Your death was imminent - ours wasn't.

That's why you guys never got your parity. Your own guys had no leverage to go to the table with because walking away from the deal meant you were on the street.

If we walked away from the table, it would have been status quo for us because we had an airline to go back to.

Like you guys had ANYTHING to do with it. You were along for the ride like everybody else.

Now, lets imagine AWA 5 years later minus the merger with US Airways. The yield from leisure travel in the sewer, losing your LAS hub, Southwest breathing down your neck when you fall back to your PHX hub. Yes Sir, you boys would have been sitting pretty, huh??

Yes we did go through two bankruptcies and your second one was just a matter of time. Have you forgotten AWA operated in bankruptcy from 1991 to 1994. You were the FIRST ones to take the government money from the ATSB. I guess things were tough all over. You throw these things around like you people were immune to them...you weren't and you aren't. Better get this BS out of your system before you "Move2CLT".

Driver...

 

[john john]

Yep PHX LAS and SHARES saved US

 

[Move2CLT]

Like you guys had ANYTHING to do with it. You were along for the ride like everybody else.

Now, lets imagine AWA 5 years later minus the merger with US Airways. The yield from leisure travel in the sewer, losing your LAS hub, Southwest breathing down your neck when you fall back to your PHX hub. Yes Sir, you boys would have been sitting pretty, huh??

Yes we did go through two bankruptcies and your second one was just a matter of time. Have you forgotten AWA operated in bankruptcy from 1991 to 1994. You were the FIRST ones to take the government money from the ATSB. I guess things were tough all over. You throw these things around like you people were immune to them...you weren't and you aren't. Better get this BS out of your system before you "Move2CLT".

Driver...

SWA has been breathing down our neck for how long? Ya, a long time and we were doing just fine.

Your fate was very easy to predict as you were gone had this merger fallen through. The evidence is there with the fact that you had no leverage for pay parity. It was take what you got or hit the street.

And as for us, like I said, we were no where near bankruptcy. Our fate was way up in the air and could have gone either way.

Point is, you don't know what would have become of us with out this merger. With you it was liquidation.

You best get your head out of your ass and accept some of the reality you were living under if you ever want to break this stale mate. With most of you (especially you) living in that fantasy world of yours thinking you were going to be OK regardless, you have managed to perpetuate this fiasco.

At least you've paid for your stupidity with LOA 93 and will continue to do so until this gets sorted out.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Let's imagine U 5 years from BK - you can't.

 

[A320 Driver]

Our fate was way up in the air and could have gone either way.

Yeah, who knows. You may have survived that second bankruptcy.

Point is, you don't know what would have become of us with out this merger.

And neither do you. That IS the point. You don't know. With all the hatred you have built up for everything East, I don't think CLT is a good fit for you. You might want to reconsider.

Driver...

 

[Move2CLT]

Yeah, who knows. You may have survived that second bankruptcy.



And neither do you. That IS the point. You don't know. With all the hatred you have built up for everything East, I don't think CLT is a good fit for you. You might want to reconsider.

Driver...

Or SFBs, we may have never entered a second bankruptcy. Just because you guys couldn't get your #### straight over there doesn't mean everyone else was doomed to be liquidated.

And you're right, I don't know for sure. But if you east PoS would take your heads out of your asses for even a second and look at the snapshot of where we were at the PID, you'd see (and Nic agreed) you were toast. We weren't.

 

[A320 Driver]

Or SFBs, we may have never entered a second bankruptcy. Just because you guys couldn't get your #### straight over there doesn't mean everyone else was doomed to be liquidated.

And you're right, I don't know for sure. But if you east PoS would take your heads out of your asses for even a second and look at the snapshot of where we were at the PID, you'd see (and Nic agreed) you were toast. We weren't.

Whatever. This is like the perpetual argument. There is no point. When you can't deal with the present, you focus on the past. Enjoy.

Driver...

 

[nic4us]

Let's imagine U 5 years from BK - you can't.

Sure you can...

200 of them working at AWA...another 200 or so at Jet Blue.... 200 at Virgin...some may have found their way into UPS and Fed EX.

But, the senior guys over their that really had their bacon saved would have been on the street or looking at China and the former Soviet.

The people who gained the most...retained it with the Nic, had the most to lose, and in return they f'd us all over by siding with the scabs.

 

[nic4us]

Whatever. This is like the perpetual argument. There is no point. When you can't deal with the present, you focus on the past. Enjoy.

Driver...

I remember the past, look to the future and live for today.

Today, the West is being screwed by you and your fellow east pilots.

So, what do you want to do about it?

 

[luvn737s]

The credit card companies had upped US's holdback requirements (due to the threat of liquidation) so much that Lakefield barely had cash to make payroll. Have you forgotten your darkest hour? The predictions of what would have happened to AWA absent the merger are largely dependent on whether they purchased the assets of the former US or simply enjoyed the loss of a competitor and raised their prices in those markets. Extrapolating the curves of AWA is not very accurate without considering the effect of a USAir shutdown. AWA could have raised additional capital to exploit it's opportunity sans US, but there would be few investors willing to throw their money down the same rathole Dr. Bronner did with the Alabama Teachers Retirement Fund.

Who knows. For the bulk of the AWA pilots it's been lousy either way. At least in BK they could have see the causes of their problems as market issues and access to capital rather than seeing the cause directly tied to fellow pilots blinded by fear and ignorance and motivated by greed.

 

[Beancounter]

The credit card companies had upped US's holdback requirements (due to the threat of liquidation) so much that Lakefield barely had cash to make payroll. Have you forgotten your darkest hour? The predictions of what would have happened to AWA absent the merger are largely dependent on whether they purchased the assets of the former US or simply enjoyed the loss of a competitor and raised their prices in those markets. Extrapolating the curves of AWA is not very accurate without considering the effect of a USAir shutdown. AWA could have raised additional capital to exploit it's opportunity sans US, but there would be few investors willing to throw their money down the same rathole Dr. Bronner did with the Alabama Teachers Retirement Fund.

Who knows. For the bulk of the AWA pilots it's been lousy either way. At least in BK they could have see the causes of their problems as market issues and access to capital rather than seeing the cause directly tied to fellow pilots blinded by fear and ignorance and motivated by greed.

I can't remember if it was Parker or McClellan that addressed waiting for US to liquidate during a brown bag lunch. The response was that Southwest would have outbid us on everything that was of value. I still think it was best for both companies in the long run. I doubt sans a merger with US, AWA would be looking at a merger with AA now. Maybe that would be a good thing. Maybe if I'd taken one of my dad's friends advice and followed him into Wall Street, I'd be worth a couple hundred mil like him. Who the heck knows. One thing I do know is that I'm disappointed USAPA is going after DOH again, with what appears to be a we won't take anything less attitude. Apparently, they/we are doomed to repeat their/our failures. Oh well. Does anyone think I have a shot at Delta when they start hiring (have 3000+121 PIC plus a couple 4yr degrees)???

Bean