June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

Bean, are you serious? You are saying a case that was dismissed tells ME I am grasping at straws? You kids are honestly starting to make it really easy to understand where all the money went, and where it will continue to go. You lost a case, that was dismissed, yet you continue to quote it and threaten with it. Dismissed means exactly that, DISMISSED. The case was thrown out. So what if a couple of dissenters said something about how they disagreed. They were the dissent and the minority. Fine with me, keep spending your money. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.


CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.

Luv,

Sorry if it sounded like a threat, it was intended as a warning. Could you come up with a list other than the Nic, that would not cause harm to the west? Sure, you could, but you guys haven't, you've pushed for DOH.

I wasn't at Wye River, but what I was told was that the west came to look at modifying or putting restrictions on the NIc. The east came wanting DOH with modifications and restrictions. I have news for you, replacing the Nic with DOH isn't a modification, it's a total screw job. It seems some on the east (not all) think that the way to negotiate is, “give me what I want and everything will be fine.”

Bean

 

[nic4us]

Bean, are you serious? You are saying a case that was dismissed tells ME I am grasping at straws? You kids are honestly starting to make it really easy to understand where all the money went, and where it will continue to go. You lost a case, that was dismissed, yet you continue to quote it and threaten with it. Dismissed means exactly that, DISMISSED. The case was thrown out. So what if a couple of dissenters said something about how they disagreed. They were the dissent and the minority. Fine with me, keep spending your money. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.


CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.

Yes..it is overtly obvious where all the money went.

Certain east pilots...about 2600 of them..in total denial over anything remotely resembling reality...hired a union busting scab lawyer in order to renege on a binding arbitration and steal jobs from their co-workers.

Serious question Luv....you do understand that Addington has been referenced in every legal action since? The NYC status quo suit, the injunction, and the DJ. Every one of them same thing...whether usapa files or the company files...the company merely goes to court and points out that usapa is a bunch of renegeing scumbags....and voila...ruling against usapa.

 

[nic4us]

Luv,

Sorry if it sounded like a threat, it was intended as a warning. Could you come up with a list other than the Nic, that would not cause harm to the west? Sure, you could, but you guys haven't, you've pushed for DOH.

I wasn't at Wye River, but what I was told was that the west came to look at modifying or putting restrictions on the NIc. The east came wanting DOH with modifications and restrictions. I have news for you, replacing the Nic with DOH isn't a modification, it's a total screw job. It seems some on the east (not all) think that the way to negotiate is, “give me what I want and everything will be fine.”

Bean

“give me what I want and everything will be fine.”

No..their strategy is....give me what I want or It will be your fault I have to steal it from you.

 

[nic4us]

Here is another thing for yu Luv...or any east pilot for that matter.

Why don't just one of you go ask James (Continental scab) Ray, WTF he was talking about to the media during info picketing? Nowhere did the 9th absolve usapa of anything, quite the contrary, the 9th warned usapa plain as day, yet the usapa mouthpiece put out a bunch of BS inciting the scabs to riot and get an injunction against all of us.

 

[luvthe9]

Luv,

Sorry if it sounded like a threat, it was intended as a warning. Could you come up with a list other than the Nic, that would not cause harm to the west? Sure, you could, but you guys haven't, you've pushed for DOH.

I wasn't at Wye River, but what I was told was that the west came to look at modifying or putting restrictions on the NIc. The east came wanting DOH with modifications and restrictions. I have news for you, replacing the Nic with DOH isn't a modification, it's a total screw job. It seems some on the east (not all) think that the way to negotiate is, “give me what I want and everything will be fine.”

Bean

Your opinion DOH is a screw job. My answer is you get what you get, at the time you are hired. No more, no less. You don't deserve to go ahead of anyone who was hired before you. Take your place in line, like I did, and wait your turn. I never expected anyone to put me ahead of anyone else. It is a screw job to think someone would. See, for every opinion, there is another. Who is correct?

 

[nic4us]

Your opinion DOH is a screw job. My answer is you get what you get, at the time you are hired. No more, no less. You don't deserve to go ahead of anyone who was hired before you. Take your place in line, like I did, and wait your turn. I never expected anyone to put me ahead of anyone else. It is a screw job to think someone would. See, for every opinion, there is another. Who is correct?

The Arbitrator.

 

[Beancounter]

Your opinion DOH is a screw job. My answer is you get what you get, at the time you are hired. No more, no less. You don't deserve to go ahead of anyone who was hired before you. Take your place in line, like I did, and wait your turn. I never expected anyone to put me ahead of anyone else. It is a screw job to think someone would. See, for every opinion, there is another. Who is correct?

You are correct, it is my opinion. I find it very interesting though that my opinion that DOH is unfair is shared by the majority of other airline pilots I've talked to and a neutral third party arbitration. I also find it interesting that your opinion happens to be a tremendous windfall for your pilot group. The carrier you received your DOH at was US Airways prior to the merger, it was not AWA. DOH allows junior east FOs to jump ahead of AWA captains, which is unfair in anyone's book. Well, anyone apparently, except certain east pilots who can have their past stagnant career suddenly corrected with a tremendous jump in seniority. Still just my opinion though. Hmmmmmmmmm. Isn't this why we went to arbitration in the first place?

Bean

 

[Phoenix]

I've wondered about that as well. I'd imagine she sat down to more than a very full plate of cases when first taking the position. I feel it's doubtful that Her Honor wakes up in the middle of every night worried sick over this case....

Yes, those who yell loudest about "not ripe" are too blind to see the 9th's premise was that the merits cannot yet be evaluated until... Wait for it.... Until AFTER negotiations (between USAPA and the company) are COMPLETE and RATIFIED... Because of contengcies that will undoubtedly bring about changes...

A merger with another 10,000 pilots and another group of 1,500+ furloughs, more than five years later presents even more contengencies than have already occurred...but yes the only thing that is written in stone is that Nic will flip out if s/he doesn't get credit for saving AA pilots from the unemployment line .

 

[luvthe9]

You are correct, it is my opinion. I find it very interesting though that my opinion that DOH is unfair is shared by the majority of other airline pilots I've talked to and a neutral third party arbitration. I also find it interesting that your opinion happens to be a tremendous windfall for your pilot group. The carrier you received your DOH at was US Airways prior to the merger, it was not AWA. DOH allows junior east FOs to jump ahead of AWA captains, which is unfair in anyone's book. Well, anyone apparently, except certain east pilots who can have their past stagnant career suddenly corrected with a tremendous jump in seniority. Still just my opinion though. Hmmmmmmmmm. Isn't this why we went to arbitration in the first place?

Bean

An AWA pilot did not have such a stellar career. To be honest I never applied there. And your recent contract is only the first that had anything halfway decent. So you see, other airline pilots would agree with that also. For years, AWA was not the place to go. If you compared my 30 yrs to anyone at your airline, I would have out earned that AWA pilot by a factor of most likely three to one. It is only the last few years you could make that claim, and we have moved forward again. So again, your captain over time was not a valuable position.

 

[cleardirect]

BPR update.

There was also discussion about an Appeals Board member writing Appeals for other pilots and the conflict of interest of that Board Member hearing the Appeal that they wrote.

Another shining example of the complete and utter lack of integrity by east pilots.

Anyone of you hard core usapa supporters want to defend and justify this behavior totally void of ethics? Before you go spinning this and making excuses. How would you feel about judge Silver writing the final brief for the west pilots before ruling on the DJ?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yes, those who yell loudest about "not ripe" are too blind to see the 9th's premise was that the merits cannot yet be evaluated until... Wait for it.... Until AFTER negotiations (between USAPA and the company) are COMPLETE and RATIFIED... Because of contengcies that will undoubtedly bring about changes...

A merger with another 10,000 pilots and another group of 1,500+ furloughs, more than five years later presents even more contengencies than have already occurred...but yes the only thing that is written in stone is that Nic will flip out if s/he doesn't get credit for saving AA pilots from the unemployment line .

The Ninth effectively said what you just said in paraphrase form; that is, ripeness on a DFR suit occurs at the time the CBA is ratified and not before. But the legal requirements for ripeness are substantially different for a Declaratory Judgement matter. A DJ already presumes that actual harm or a breach of duty does not need to have occurred yet but still creates a situation where a party needs and is entitled to judicial relief. Therefore, Silver does not need to wait and see what USAPA and Management will achieve at the bargaining table to determine if there is a valid expectation of injury to the Company or to the west pilots. As she put it, this case is exactly why the DJ statutes were created in the first place. Thus, while she may not lose any sleep over this matter, she has the full legal authority to evaluate the prayer for relief and rule for one of the Counts presented to her. If she determines that Wake and the Addington jury were correct, she could rule in a summary judgement on Count 1 without a TA/JCBA being ratified. Seigel is a smart guy and a recognized expert on the RLA. He has laid all of this out for Silver which should make her decision exceedingly easy if she follows the undisputed facts to their already determined conclusion.

 

[OTTER574]

Here is another thing for yu Luv...or any east pilot for that matter.

Why don't just one of you go ask James (Continental scab) Ray, WTF he was talking about to the media during info picketing? Nowhere did the 9th absolve usapa of anything, quite the contrary, the 9th warned usapa plain as day, yet the usapa mouthpiece put out a bunch of BS inciting the scabs to riot and get an injunction against all of us.

Shhhh! Parker, Kirby, AOL and APA have the wicked witch of the east (usapa) righttttt where they want them....SOON OUT OF BUSINESS as a corrupt $cba$.... 😉

OTTER... 😛

 

[luvthe9]

You are correct, it is my opinion. I find it very interesting though that my opinion that DOH is unfair is shared by the majority of other airline pilots I've talked to and a neutral third party arbitration. I also find it interesting that your opinion happens to be a tremendous windfall for your pilot group. The carrier you received your DOH at was US Airways prior to the merger, it was not AWA. DOH allows junior east FOs to jump ahead of AWA captains, which is unfair in anyone's book. Well, anyone apparently, except certain east pilots who can have their past stagnant career suddenly corrected with a tremendous jump in seniority. Still just my opinion though. Hmmmmmmmmm. Isn't this why we went to arbitration in the first place?

Bean

Well, we all have opinions. Mine is that it isn't all about West captains. How about an East F/O with 18yrs going behind new hires and every single AWA pilot just because he was furloughed. And now that furloughed F/O now can hold the A 330 right seat. Is that fair to throw every one of them under the entire list, including NEW HIRES? That is how you got the revolt. The entire list of F/O's with up to 18 yrs going under new hires. Massive error, and it cost you the Nic. You should have tried to fix that one at WYE, it cost you the entire Nic. And you think there will not be an appeal to the 9th should Silver rule contrary? We will do it on our own. Guaranteed, outside USAPA if USAPA doesn't.

 

[Beancounter]

An AWA pilot did not have such a stellar career. To be honest I never applied there. And your recent contract is only the first that had anything halfway decent. So you see, other airline pilots would agree with that also. For years, AWA was not the place to go. If you compared my 30 yrs to anyone at your airline, I would have out earned that AWA pilot by a factor of most likely three to one. It is only the last few years you could make that claim, and we have moved forward again. So again, your captain over time was not a valuable position.

Luv,

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. AWA's past and US Airways past have no relevance for what you are talking about. The seniority integration uses a snapshot. What matters is what current reality is when the merger occurs. Was AWA headed for bankruptcy? Maybe. Just as likely as US was headed for liquidation. There is no solid argument for US being in a better position than AWA at the time of the merger. Both airlines brought something to the merger. Saying that in the past US Airways was the place to be, is nice, but it is just history. I think some pilots on the east think AWA was staffed by low time Mesa FOs, which just isn't true. When I was hired at AWA I had thousands of hours of 121 PIC, four year, clean record, etc. There were very few airlines hiring when I was looking to go to a major, AWA was my second choice and the first to call. In my new hire class, there were 2 fighter pilots, 2 corporate, 1 US Airways FO/ex captain and the rest were commuter captains. I'm willing to bet that the time and experience I had when hired at AWA is much higher than the majority of east pilots when they were hire at US Air/Airways. I was a junior FO at AWA at the time of the merger and expected to be the same after the merger. A junior FO at US Airways prior to the merger should expect the same. Like some of the east pilots like to say, "no cutting in line."

Bean.

 

[Beancounter]

Well, we all have opinions. Mine is that it isn't all about West captains. How about an East F/O with 18yrs going behind new hires and every single AWA pilot just because he was furloughed. And now that furloughed F/O now can hold the A 330 right seat. Is that fair to throw every one of them under the entire list, including NEW HIRES? That is how you got the revolt. The entire list of F/O's with up to 18 yrs going under new hires. Massive error, and it cost you the Nic. You should have tried to fix that one at WYE, it cost you the entire Nic. And you think there will not be an appeal to the 9th should Silver rule contrary? We will do it on our own. Guaranteed, outside USAPA if USAPA doesn't.

I'm not going to argue about that. With the Nic, the junior AWA pilots, such as myself, saw a windfall.

Like I mentioned earlier, the east at Wye, from what I was told, were not interested in negotiating a fix, they wanted to dictate terms.

Bean