June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

The Franke legions cannot figure the damage they inflicted on themselves. They are their own worst enemies.

Said the eastie.

Yawn.

 

[nic4us]

Sorry, almost forgot to answere your question about what usapa should have done.

usapa should have gone to the negotiating table with the Nic and went for the best contract it could get.

That is what unions are supposed to do. That is how unions represent their class and craft.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Ok so with all the problems we have with NIC how is USAPA forcing seperate ops? You know just as well as I do that kirby + Nic had zero chance of ever being ratified. The only chance NIC ever had of seeing a ratified contract would have been stellar pay rates from tempe. Which they won't even discuss...unless you fly a plane with AA painted on the side and even then I would not call them steller.

The only other thing I see that USAPA could have done was put Kirby/nic out for vote....and we would still be exactly where we are today. Don't take this to mean I agree with USAPA on some of the other things they did (rico etc) but from a practical standpoint what was a union, ANY union supposed to do when one side say "Nic or nothing" and the other side says "Anything BUT NIC"

The east line pilots will vote yes for a lot of different scenarios, DOH with heavy fences and protections for east and west, attrition protections for the mass east exodous that gives east guys east retire seats and west guys west retire seats, something middle of the road that does not chop 1/3 of the east list off and staple them etcetc. From a east line pilot perspective I KNOW the east voters will say yes to a lot of things. NIC unmodified however is not one of them. So since all we have seen ever since NIC came out is "Nic or Nothing" what exactly could USAPA have done to get a joint list and solve the pay parity problem, which would have also solved the growth aircraft problem?

USAPA's prime objective has been to delay the implementation of the NIC for as long as possible. As an organization they haven't done a single thing to achieve a new CBA by way of good faith negotiations or seeking the clearest and most direct legal path to resolve the question of whether the Section 22 can be negotiated with a list other than the NIC. When an opportunity to resolve the question of is the NIC required by law, they have opposed finding out the answer at every turn. USAPA's actions indicate that they don't want an expedited resolution to that question, instead their actions demonstrate that hearing the answer to that question is the very last thing USAPA desires.

Addington provided that answer but USAPA decided to appeal primarily on ripeness and got the Ninth to rule that the case wan't ripe yet for adjudication. That doesn't answer the question and it did nothing to expedite the process of achieving a JBCA. If USAPA was absoutely certain of their freedom to abandon the NIC, there would be no need to appeal on ripeness. They could have let the Ninth evaluate the merits and gotten a final answer. Delaying the answer was preferable to actually getting the answer, so what does that tell you?

USAPA could have filed their own DJ matter and asked a court for relief from the threat of west pilot lawsuits, but USAPA doesn't want an answer, only a perpetual delay. When the Company filed a DJ, USAPA could have cooperated and sought to get the answer via that legal process, but instead they have done nothing but slow down the process so that the court's decision will be delayed as long as possible. What does that tell you?

Three things are clear from USAPA's prior actions: 1) they don't want an answer and they will delay the JCBA process for as long as possible to avoid getting that answer, and 2) USAPA will attack their perceived enemies (west pilots and the Company) as a means of diverting attention away from their duty to negotiate a contract in good faith by engaging in frivolous and meritless actions (USA Today ads, RICO charges against west pilots, section 29 letters), and 3) USAPA will tell their supporters anything if it means keeping the delay game in operation for as long as possible (LOA93 grievance, encouraging a work slowdown in violation of federal law).

If USAPA was really interested in getting all pilots on a JCBA with pay parity they would have followed almost any other course of action than what they have done over the last four years. Any one of those courses of action would have resulted in an answer (final and unalterable) by now and negotiations could have reasonable been concluded with the Company by now. Instead its all about delay and USAPA alone gets the rightful blame for allowing this to drag on this long.

 

[Move2CLT]

The Franke legions cannot figure the damage they inflicted on themselves. They are their own worst enemies.

Your slunt Parrella lost by a 2:1 margin Claxon! Did you and luv forget to vote?

 

[Keroseneuser]

A couple of points regarding your reply.

1. "WE" don't have a problem with the Nic.....you have a problem with the Nic. A onesided, self induced impass, that is the cornerstone of the usapa arguement, and the linchpin usapa uses to force seperate ops.

2. One side is not saying "anything but the Nic"...they are saying DOH, take West jobs, or else. Have been since the merger was announced. Maybe you can point to me where in the Nic transcripts the east ever came off DOH. Maybe, you were at Wye river, when the east demanded DOH. Perhaps you were at the table when usapa passed the DOH list to the company who promptly gave it right back to them.

3. We will never know what would have been offered in a Nic inclusive contract, or whether it would have passed. That is pure speculation on your part. Granted a Nic inclusive Kirby would not have passed, the West would have helped turn that down.

4. What any union should do is live up to its DFR owed its class and craft. The members of LCC's pilot group entered into a binding arbitration amongst ourselves. It is the DFR of the union to uphold the results of that arbitration, not pick one side and frustrate the result. On this point, I am upset that the east founded usapa to renege, and will be happy to see usapa gone, but I am almost as equally pissed at the fat a-hole Prater, and was not in the least surprised to see him ousted.

Regarding number 2 in your list. You are assuming that what you saw in the NIC transcripts is what the average east line pilot feels, it is not as far as I can see. I agree with you that Cleary probably never even considered anything else, but as far as what the east line pilots would have voted yes on it pretty much is "Anything but NIC" meaning that we would be open to all kinds of things that would protect each sides retirements, bases, seats, etc. Contrary to what AOL and others would have you believe the majority of the east has no interest in west Capt. seats. Why should we? We have 1600+ retirements coming up in the next 8 years. What the average east line pilot does NOT want is 800 west first officers coming over and taking 800 of those east retirement seats for themselves. Which is what NIC represents.

You have to remember that this is a group that gave billions to "save" their company only to have mgmt. put them back in BK almost immediatly after doing so, then you have Nicolou saying none of that matters and not only that you are going to lose your attrition that you waited 15 to 20 years to get.

Whoever sold you the bill of goods that you are sending AOL all this money to fight off the evil east line pilot that was bent on taking all your captain seats with straight DOH and no protections for the west is full of crap. I guarantee you if we could have a vote tomorrow on a joint contract that protected each sides retirements (east gets east west gets west) and each sides current positions via fences with growth aircraft split down the middle it would pass no problem on the east.

However everytime I have mentioned that on this board I was flooded by a whole string of west posters screaming "NIC or nothing" Well it looks like the east feeling is "nothing" The east group is apparantly content to keep their attrition on a lower payscale than have anything to do with an unmodified NIC. The last USAPA officer election shows that. They were tired of the cleary style leadership and voted to see a more moderate leadership installed, but the lack of east votes for ferguson should have sent the message loud and clear that NIC is a non starter...or in this case a brick wall that they will not cross.

So yes, we east line pilots are very open to something that will get this mess fixed, as long as its not an unmodified NIC.

 

[CallawayGolf]

So yes, we east line pilots are very open to something that will get this mess fixed, as long as its not an unmodified NIC.

There's only one person who can modify the award - George Nicolau. So, what does USAPA plan to do by way of asking him to modify his arbitrated decision?

 

[EastCheats]

Buh Bye Grievance Granny. Here is a dedication from 2011 in honor of her as she flies West.

After her next appeal.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvF6nosQOmw&feature=relmfu

 

[Keroseneuser]

There's only one person who can modify the award - George Nicolau. So, what does USAPA plan to do by way of asking him to modify his arbitrated decision?

Good lord its not that freaking hard to have an election on the west to appoint west pilots to represent them for a group to work out something with the east group. Call it an interunion negotiating panel or whatever. Hell i would pony up some money to get it done, probably enough others would too.

You want this fixed we need to think out of the box. However it is probably too late for such a task due to 2 things. The potential merger with AA (which I truly think will be the nail in the NIC coffin) and number 2 being the end of the 5 year retirement stop this december. You think it was hard getting the east line pilots to even discuss accepting a NIC when there had been basically zero movement on the east side for 12 years, think how hard the resistance is going to be when there is movement on the order of 1600+ in the next 8 years!

Looking at those factors I really think the time for us to have fixed this was about 4 years ago. By then we had all seen the clusterflop that was the first try at this mess and the writing was on the wall for all to read that we were at an impass that could not be broken. West would never ever accept straight DOH with no protections (neither would I in their place) and east would never accept an unmodified NIC (Neither would the west if they were in our position) I told a west friend of mine about 2007 or so that this would not be settled for many years to come unless we figured something else out, he was sure NIC was "right around the corner" If the AA thing goes thru one way or another it will get fixed. I figure probably a 3 way using current position at time of AA merge.......then another 7 to 10 years or so of west f/o group lawsuits. By the time it is all sorted out nobody will care because 2000+ east and 400+ west will be retired by then and make it a moot point.

 

[cleardirect]

How is that blamed on the east? Doug and team tempe put those airplanes where Doug and team tempe wanted to put those airplanes. There is nothing in the T/A that says doug had to put the hardware on the east.

More than likely the one deciding factor for Doug was cost. Since the west didn't think pay parity was something to push for we ended up with it being cheaper for Doug to operate those aircraft on the east. Given that it was quite apparant that we were not going to have a combined sen list or contract for a very long time once the NIC mess surfaced it was real easy to see where the growth was going to go in a two payscale company. The side with the cheaper crew costs.

Finally! Someone from the east that is willing to admit the truth. It is Doug Parker placing the flying with the east because you are cheaper and have undercut the west in order to take jobs. That it is not the “mighty east coast” that draws the flying but the fact that you east pilots will work for less and demand to stay on BK wages.

BTW the west did support pay parity right up until the time the east walked out on JNC and demanded separate ops. Don’t blame the west. How long has usapa been the bargaining agent? Why have they not been able to get you pay parity? Is the west minority stopping the majority?

So what would you call a group of pilots within the same company willing to undercut the pay and benefits of the other side in order to advance themselves and take all of the work?

 

[cleardirect]

So now that the shoe is on the other foot with you east guys you don't think it is fair. From the BPR Ingram campaign letter.

This is basically a group II to group I ratio, but the company has the right to allocate from day one these aircraft to the bases they want. Nowhere in the term sheet is the A330 or B767 aircraft or flying mentioned, or guaranteed. Those flying the A330 and B767 today may find themselves pushed down to the narrow body aircraft while you taxi in and park next to an American pilot flown B767 or B777 finishing an international flight in CLT, PHX, or PHL. You guessed it, there are no protections either on the flying we already perform today, or will perform tomorrow, in our US Airways system. This means the possible downscaling of our entire flying – essentially the ‘New American Eagleazation’ of your career.

Gee Dewitt you bonehead. That is exactly what you want to do to the west. What do you think those worthless C&R's do to the west? The usapaitization of the west careers.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Good lord its not that freaking hard to have an election on the west to appoint west pilots to represent them for a group to work out something with the east group. Call it an interunion negotiating panel or whatever. Hell i would pony up some money to get it done, probably enough others would too.

You want this fixed we need to think out of the box. However it is probably too late for such a task due to 2 things. The potential merger with AA (which I truly think will be the nail in the NIC coffin) and number 2 being the end of the 5 year retirement stop this december. You think it was hard getting the east line pilots to even discuss accepting a NIC when there had been basically zero movement on the east side for 12 years, think how hard the resistance is going to be when there is movement on the order of 1600+ in the next 8 years!

Looking at those factors I really think the time for us to have fixed this was about 4 years ago. By then we had all seen the clusterflop that was the first try at this mess and the writing was on the wall for all to read that we were at an impass that could not be broken. West would never ever accept straight DOH with no protections (neither would I in their place) and east would never accept an unmodified NIC (Neither would the west if they were in our position) I told a west friend of mine about 2007 or so that this would not be settled for many years to come unless we figured something else out, he was sure NIC was "right around the corner" If the AA thing goes thru one way or another it will get fixed. I figure probably a 3 way using current position at time of AA merge.......then another 7 to 10 years or so of west f/o group lawsuits. By the time it is all sorted out nobody will care because 2000+ east and 400+ west will be retired by then and make it a moot point.

If it's so simple, why hasn't any of this been tried? Could it be perhaps that everyone knows that it only takes one pilot to file and win a DFR against USAPA and then all of that hard work to compromise on the comprised and arbitrated list would be for naught when the court comes back after an unquestionable ripe DFR and places an injunction on USAPA to go back and use the NIC anyway?

USAPA is backed into a corner and all of their efforts in trying to go forward at this point will be even more futile than their efforts over the past four years. The west won't negotiate with them because there is no need to and because who can really trust a group that breaks their agreements and attacks their enemies with the intent to destroy them even if they have done nothing wrong? The company won't accept any seniority list other than the NIC unless Silver gives them an iron-clad immunity from future collusion charges for going along with USAPA nefarious schemes (not going to happen). Then there is the APA which vastly outnumbers USAPA and has no need to negotiate with their inferior counterparts once the merger is consummated.

With no one willing to listen to or negotiate with USAPA, that leaves only two viable choices at this point - it can stay trapped in the corner as the most irrelevant and neutered union in American history while allowing ever other party to walk all over them, or it can raise the white flag by accepting the NIC. USAPA has handed their "opponents" all of the leverage and power and I don't see any of those groups giving that power back to USAPA without gaining far more than USAPA is prepared to give.

 

[Keroseneuser]

So what would you call a group of pilots within the same company willing to undercut the pay and benefits of the other side in order to advance themselves and take all of the work?

You mean as opposed to the group that would take the next 6 years of attrition from the other group?

Two sides to the same coin my friend. Problem is the only way you will allow us to not undercut you is if we give you all our retirement seats for 6 years and put 1/3 of our pilots under every west pilot. Yeah yeah I know "In 2005 they were furloughed" Guess what, its not 2005 anymore and by the time NIC ruling came out they were not furloughed.....and could vote.

Personally I would love to not be undercutting the west payscale. Problem is the west seems to not have a problem with it since they don't want to talk to us about something in the middle. "NIC or Nothing...YeeeHaw" Well looks like the nothing option is favored apparantly.

 

[Keroseneuser]

If it's so simple, why hasn't any of this been tried? Could it be perhaps that everyone knows that it only takes one pilot to file and win a DFR against USAPA and then all of that hard work to compromise on the comprised and arbitrated list would be for naught when the court comes back after an unquestionable ripe DFR and places an injunction on USAPA to go back and use the NIC anyway?

USAPA is backed into a corner and all of their efforts in trying to go forward at this point will be even more futile than their efforts over the past four years. The west won't negotiate with them because there is no need to and because who can really trust a group that breaks their agreements and attacks their enemies with the intent to destroy them even if they have done nothing wrong? The company won't accept any seniority list other than the NIC unless Silver gives them an iron-clad immunity from future collusion charges for going along with USAPA nefarious schemes (not going to happen). Then there is the APA which vastly outnumbers USAPA and has no need to negotiate with their inferior counterparts once the merger is consummated.

With no one willing to listen to or negotiate with USAPA, that leaves only two viable choices at this point - it can stay trapped in the corner as the most irrelevant and neutered union in American history while allowing ever other party to walk all over them, or it can raise the white flag by accepting the NIC. USAPA has handed their "opponents" all of the leverage and power and I don't see any of those groups giving that power back to USAPA without gaining far more than USAPA is prepared to give.

Let them sue, it's the american way after all. If you find something that the majority of east and west can vote yes for, say 75% or whatever, I doubt you will find a judge that will give a small group of dissenters much traction. Something I think we are going to see come about anyway if this AA thing goes through. 13000+ that favor a 3 way vs a lawsuit from what 800? 1000 at the most? At best it will give the courts something to do for a few years and make a couple lawyers a few bucks.

It can be added to the TWA lawsuits still floating around.

 

[fodase]

East scabs, wothless clowns. You souless bastards have caused millions in damages to the west and every single one of you clowns will eventually pay. Cowards.

 

[mrbreeze]

East scabs, wothless clowns. You souless bastards have caused millions in damages to the west and every single one of you clowns will eventually pay. Cowards.

What? did you grow up with this fear of clowns......or were you repeatedly raped by a bunch of clowns when you were, say 13 to 25 yrs old?

You are a sick puppy, who has no ability to see anyone else's point of view, thus making the clown rape theory more real.

breeze