June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fodase]

I figure it is going to go pretty much how the APA wants it to go. Their updates have already focused heavily on the retirement numbers, so I am guessing they will go with whatever method maximizes their folks seniority. Meaning the method that puts the oldest pilots that are closest to retirement above their guys and resist anything that puts younger pilots above their older ones.

Glad to see the east delusion is still alive and well.

 

[cleardirect]

Don't see an edit button on this new layout, but related to my previous post...

Personally I see the lack of seniority issues in this update as a good thing. Get the contract issues worked out before the merger kicks in so everybody is working on the same page and payrate as well as same furlough protections etc.

Let the seniority issue get fought about later after everybody has the same protections and pay as everyone else. Would have saved us a bunch of problems if 7 years ago a similar approach was taken.


EDIT: Found the edit button ! Guess it has a limited edit time and had timed out on the previous post. 🙂

Except that is not the way the term sheet reads. Find the sheet and look under the section merger issues. The last sentence. Concentrate on the word implemented.

No pay raise until the seniority is settled.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Glad to see the east delusion is still alive and well.

If you were an AA pilot faced with the choices what would you do? Given their track record with Reno and TWA I am sure they will try to go with the method that minimizes the placement of younger pilots above their older pilots. If you were in their shoes you would do the same thing. Remember they will have basically nothing to lose in this, their pay rates and furlough protection is already set up. What do they care if the actual integration gets bogged down in legal battles after a merger date? All they really have to do is nothing once the merger comes and we end up with what we have now except it will be 3 different pilot groups and contracts instead of 2.

They can probably find a way to avoid a dfr and drag it out another 7 years if needed. Look how long it has taken so far with just one union change since the NIC, APA would be the 3rd union to deal with this incomplete integration. i suspect they can use that to basically start the process all over to see what if any liability they have if NIC is not used.

Interesting times. Maybe at least we can figure out a way that we all can be working for the same pay scale while the rest of it is fought out.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hey East,

I see lots of bluster but still no list...having a little trouble concentrating on reality? I do find your fascination with military cockpits amusing though misplaced - the price you pay for not using a dictionary like I recommended pages ago. And I assume you and Phoenix think of cockpits - make that military cockpits - like backpacks - something to hold miscellaneous odds and ends carried along for the rare instance you might need them...self-imagined Sky Gods don't really need cockpits (with airplanes presumably attached) to fly after all...

Jim

Jim

 

[ChockJockey]

"Oh I didn't drop any cluster bombs on those villagers, they must have fallen out of my backpack."

 

[Keroseneuser]

No pay raise until the seniority is settled.

For east and west yes. Does it specifically say the AA guys dont get it until integration? Don't have it in front of me.

If so given Dougs track record thats probably a nice ace in the hole for him to potentially stick them at whatever wages the BK court gives them and us at where we are until the mess is sorted out....many months later.

 

[fodase]

If you were an AA pilot faced with the choices what would you do? Given their track record with Reno and TWA I am sure they will try to go with the method that minimizes the placement of younger pilots above their older pilots. If you were in their shoes you would do the same thing. Remember they will have basically nothing to lose in this, their pay rates and furlough protection is already set up. What do they care if the actual integration gets bogged down in legal battles after a merger date? All they really have to do is nothing once the merger comes and we end up with what we have now except it will be 3 different pilot groups and contracts instead of 2.

They can probably find a way to avoid a dfr and drag it out another 7 years if needed. Look how long it has taken so far with just one union change since the NIC, APA would be the 3rd union to deal with this incomplete integration. i suspect they can use that to basically start the process all over to see what if any liability they have if NIC is not used.

Interesting times. Maybe at least we can figure out a way that we all can be working for the same pay scale while the rest of it is fought out.

why is it that you ignore the facts? There will be no sli until we are all under a single contract, also the apa will file asap to be the union. Why don't you include these facts in your thought process?

 

[EastUS1]

...lots of bluster but still no.....I do find your fascination with military cockpits amusing though misplaced

I'll leave any and all issues of "lots of bluster but still no" to yourself. How utterly pathetic. Dismissed.

 

[cleardirect]

For east and west yes. Does it specifically say the AA guys dont get it until integration? Don't have it in front of me.

If so given Dougs track record thats probably a nice ace in the hole for him to potentially stick them at whatever wages the BK court gives them and us at where we are until the mess is sorted out....many months later.

No. What is says is that AA pilots will get paid until the APA can negotiate for a joint contract for the Us Airways pilots. So if you east guys want to drag this out we will not get paid. If it has to go to arbitration for the contract we do not get paid until the seniority list is implemented.

 

[cleardirect]

I figure it is going to go pretty much how the APA wants it to go. Their updates have already focused heavily on the retirement numbers, so I am guessing they will go with whatever method maximizes their folks seniority. Meaning the method that puts the oldest pilots that are closest to retirement above their guys and resist anything that puts younger pilots above their older ones.

I figure if you want to see what direction they are going to take, 3 way or 2 way the only thing you have to do is look at the above consideration. Now on the legal side who knows how it will all wash out, but as far as what I think they will be pushing for, 3 way is my guess. For the simple fact that it adds a bunch of mid to late 50's guys into the reletive mix at a higher level than a 2 way that includes NIC and would add more late 30's and 40's guys at the higher level.

Time will tell though.

Now I don't know what AA updates you are reading but none of the ones I have seen have said anything about the age of the pilots groups. You east guys seemed obsessed with age.

I went to the AAA/AWA proposed list and randomly picked 2 spot on the list and pulled DOB. Can you tell me if group 1 is east or west pilots?

Group 1
05/04/61
01/28/62
07/05/62
10/10/62
11/07/49
11/29/58
12/09/58
03/09/59
04/22/59

East or west pilots?
Group 2
07/08/50
10/28/50
03/17/52
05/04/52
10/28/60
09/29/57
12/08/57
03/02/58
09/12/58

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'll leave any and all issues of "lots of bluster but still no" to yourself. How utterly pathetic. Dismissed.

You're useless - can even quote a post...

Hey East,

I see lots of bluster but still no list..

Feel free to put whatever planes suit your fantasy on that list - it'll still be wrong. Oh...maybe that's why you keep tap dancing and side-stepping - you know you'll be wrong....LOL

The mighty (mouse) East - so afraid of that little word "one"...doing everything possible to address that little issue...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

You're useless - can't even quote a post correctly...But that's nothing new...



Feel free to put whatever planes suit your fantasy on that list - it'll still be wrong. Oh...maybe that's why you keep tap dancing and side-stepping - you know you'll be wrong....LOL

The mighty (mouse) East - so afraid of that little word "one"...doing everything possible to address that little issue...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

You're useless - can even quote a post...



Feel free to put whatever planes suit your fantasy on that list - it'll still be wrong. Oh...maybe that's why you keep tap dancing and side-stepping - you know you'll be wrong....LOL

The mighty (mouse) East - so afraid of that little word "one"...doing everything possible to not address that little issue...

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

I figure it is going to go pretty much how the APA wants it to go. Their updates have already focused heavily on the retirement numbers, so I am guessing they will go with whatever method maximizes their folks seniority. Meaning the method that puts the oldest pilots that are closest to retirement above their guys and resist anything that puts younger pilots above their older ones.

I figure if you want to see what direction they are going to take, 3 way or 2 way the only thing you have to do is look at the above consideration. Now on the legal side who knows how it will all wash out, but as far as what I think they will be pushing for, 3 way is my guess. For the simple fact that it adds a bunch of mid to late 50's guys into the reletive mix at a higher level than a 2 way that includes NIC and would add more late 30's and 40's guys at the higher level.

Time will tell though.

Let me understand you. You think that the APA guys are going to take into account age as a factor. Even though it is not a player in any merger method. You think that the APA guys are willing to allow you "old" east guys to bid for 4-5-6-7 years ahead of them because you will leave soon. But they will place the west guys behind them because you think we are younger. Using your logic would they not want to order the list just by DOB and disregard seat or aircraft? what about the west guys about to retire. Do they get special treatment or only east guys?

Tell me did the APA consider the old guys from TWA and give them a chance to go ahead of them? Why would they treat you any differently than they treated the TWA guys?

 

[cleardirect]

Question for an east pilot. You guys complain that there are east pilots that are never going to upgrade and it is not fair and something should be done about it. Like make the west pilots wait and give up our seat so you can upgrade.

SOOOOOO! There are AA pilots that are going to retire as F/O's. What should we do about that? Are you east guys willing to delay your upgrades so an AA pilots can have your seat before he retires?