June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

...who has no ability to see anyone else's point of view, thus making the clown rape theory more real.

breeze

Oh the hypocrisy.

 

[mrbreeze]

Oh the hypocrisy.

Ah Move,

I have been waiting to hear from you.

I would assume you were one of the clowns (hidden by your mask) that stood in line while Fodase was taken advantage of.

You guys will do anything to take advantage of your fellow human being.

breeze

 

[Move2CLT]

You have to remember that this is a group that gave billions to "save" their company only to have mgmt. put them back in BK almost immediatly after doing so, then you have Nicolou saying none of that matters and not only that you are going to lose your attrition that you waited 15 to 20 years to get.
Whoever sold you the bill of goods that you are sending AOL all this money to fight off the evil east line pilot that was bent on taking all your captain seats with straight DOH and no protections for the west is full of crap. I guarantee you if we could have a vote tomorrow on a joint contract that protected each sides retirements (east gets east west gets west) and each sides current positions via fences with growth aircraft split down the middle it would pass no problem on the east.

However everytime I have mentioned that on this board I was flooded by a whole string of west posters screaming "NIC or nothing" Well it looks like the east feeling is "nothing" The east group is apparantly content to keep their attrition on a lower payscale than have anything to do with an unmodified NIC. The last USAPA officer election shows that. They were tired of the cleary style leadership and voted to see a more moderate leadership installed, but the lack of east votes for ferguson should have sent the message loud and clear that NIC is a non starter...or in this case a brick wall that they will not cross.

So yes, we east line pilots are very open to something that will get this mess fixed, as long as its not an unmodified NIC.

See, that's where the east idiots come up short. For you guys, it was more than just protecting attrition. Did you ever ask your leadership how they wanted to handle furloughs? How about new aircraft?

Seems like you always got the better deal there.

No, there are no fences and there will be no fences. Our fight is over and we wait for Parker to move on AA. From there the chances are close to 100% that Nic will be used to integrate our side with APA.

Time to stop crying and accept reality. You guys will be retired and dead soon so make the most of what you have left.

 

[Move2CLT]

Ah Move,

I have been waiting to hear from you.

I would assume you were one of the clowns (hidden by your mask) that stood in line while Fodase was taken advantage of.

You guys will do anything to take advantage of your fellow human being.

breeze

Ah, coming from someone of your level of morality, I won't lose an ounce of sleep. I've never seen a pilot group beat up on its own like you guys have and, in the process, completely f-up your careers. I'd feel sorry for your pathetic asses but I'm too busy laughing at you.

So save your BS for yourself and your fellow easties. Its not our fault you f-ed yourselves and its not our job to resurrect your miserable careers.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Ah, coming from someone of your level of morality, I won't lose an ounce of sleep. I've never seen a pilot group beat up on its own like you guys have and, in the process, completely f-up your careers. I'd feel sorry for your pathetic asses but I'm too busy laughing at you.

So save your BS for yourself and your fellow easties. Its not our fault you f-ed yourselves and its not our job to resurrect your miserable careers.

And it's not our job to import retirements to a whole pack of entitlement generation pilots. "But...but...but....I was going to be a Captain at 4 years with the company!" "Since we don't have anybody retiring soon I want your retirements that your guys waited 20 years for.....it's my right!" Sounds like the occupy wallstreet idiots.

 

[mrbreeze]

Ah, coming from someone of your level of morality, I won't lose an ounce of sleep. I've never seen a pilot group beat up on its own like you guys have and, in the process, completely f-up your careers. I'd feel sorry for your pathetic asses but I'm too busy laughing at you.

So save your BS for yourself and your fellow easties. Its not our fault you f-ed yourselves and its not our job to resurrect your miserable careers.

be patient, my friend.

The time is coming where the truth will present itself.....then you can beg forgiveness from Fodase for your behavior..

breeze

 

[CallawayGolf]

Let them sue, it's the american way after all. If you find something that the majority of east and west can vote yes for, say 75% or whatever, I doubt you will find a judge that will give a small group of dissenters much traction. Something I think we are going to see come about anyway if this AA thing goes through. 13000+ that favor a 3 way vs a lawsuit from what 800? 1000 at the most? At best it will give the courts something to do for a few years and make a couple lawyers a few bucks.

It can be added to the TWA lawsuits still floating around.

Well the last time this very matter of law went before a federal court and was evaluated based on the merits of the plaintiff's DFR claim it didn't work out too well for USAPA and in fact resulted in an injunction. A fact by no means lost on judge Silver. But if you think your plan will work then fine. Go for it. Get a DOH JCBA and see what happens. It just might be the quickest way for the NIC to be implemented and you will have already voted in the JCBA so then you are out of options except the one that has been there all along to avoid the NIC - just quit and start over somewhere else. Too bad the Company won't go along with it though.

 

[EastUS1]

Well the last time this very matter of law went before a federal court and was evaluated based on the merits of the plaintiff's DFR claim it didn't work out too well for USAPA and in fact resulted in an injunction.

"...and in fact resulted in an injunction." So much is always made of this nonsense.....ummm....How long did that little excursion into Wonderland by Wake actually last? How many completely clueless judges can you honestly count on having for any future dives down the rabbit hole?

"....if you think your plan will work then fine. Go for it. Get a DOH JCBA and see what happens." Sounds good to me.

".... just quit and start over somewhere else" If you're as truly upset with the situation here as it generally seems, then perhaps you should heed your own advice. I don't hear that tone from folks out east.

"Too bad the Company won't go along with it though" The company would sell it's figurative mother to slave traders if it would facilitate getting little grubby hands on any bigger-better-deal.....Period.

 

[Ames]

That Cleardirect sob story is only rivaled by some of Ames and Nic4 crying jags.

Provide one example of a crying jag, claxhole.

 

[Ames]

Ah Move,

I have been waiting to hear from you.

I would assume you were one of the clowns (hidden by your mask) that stood in line while Fodase was taken advantage of.

You guys will do anything to take advantage of your fellow human being.

breeze

Well, at least you're not using your daughter and her illness to insult people any more. That's a big improvement. Good for you.

 

[Ames]

"...and in fact resulted in an injunction." So much is always made of this nonsense.....ummm....How long did that little excursion into Wonderland by Wake actually last? How many completely clueless judges can you honestly count on having for any future dives down the rabbit hole?

"....if you think your plan will work then fine. Go for it. Get a DOH JCBA and see what happens." Sounds good to me.

".... just quit and start over somewhere else" If you're as truly upset with the situation here as it generally seems, then perhaps you should heed your own advice. I don't hear that tone from folks out east.

"Too bad the Company won't go along with it though" The company would sell it's figurative mother to slave traders if it would facilitate getting little grubby hands on any bigger-better-deal.....Period.

It's stuff like this that makes me support a merger with APA. Anything,and I mean anything, will be better than dealing with these fools. There is no way we will ever move on with them.

 

[Ames]

be patient, my friend.

The time is coming where the truth will present itself.....then you can beg forgiveness from Fodase for your behavior..

breeze

When the truth presents itself you will not recognize it. You haven't so far. When the judge rules and the truth is shoved down your throat then you will be the one begging and I am so looking forward to that.

 

[luvthe9]

East scabs, wothless clowns. You souless bastards have caused millions in damages to the west and every single one of you clowns will eventually pay. Cowards.

Don't worry I'm sure Furguson will get you "damages". B) 😀 😀 😀 Stop your whining you little crybaby. 😀

 

[Move2CLT]

Well, at least you're not using your daughter and her illness to insult people any more. That's a big improvement. Good for you.

I know.

I've seen some on this board stoop low, but never actually dig to go even lower.

Breeze has set a new low with that junk.

 

[PITbull]

Thought this would be of interest...this letter below from DeWitt Ingram, CLT USAPA Board of Pilot Representatives Candidate for Appeal Board Seat 3, to US Air pilots; pretty illuminating stuff to digest, don't you think?



-------------------------------------

My fellow US Airways Pilots,

The information you will read below concerning the possible merger is critical for you to understand.

There is no better way for me to qualify to you how I will serve you as a possible Appeal Board Member (seat 3) than to write to you and discuss how I interpret a potential catastrophic injustice to you as US Airways pilots. As such, please accept the following information as my analysis of our ongoing potential merger activities with the company and APA.

The APA/US Airways management term sheet is a first time ever, industry changing event. Read that first sentence again. Our managements future depends on them taking over American Airlines during the bankruptcy process. After American emerges from bankruptcy on its own, (and it will as many expect), it will be impossible for our management to conduct a hostile takeover of American Airlines. No bankruptcy judge will ever deny to American Airlines the same right and benefits of bankruptcy law that were given to all other CEOs to restructure their airlines. This has been affirmed already in airline bankruptcy history US Airways (twice), Continental Airlines (twice), United, Delta, and Northwest all went into and came out of bankruptcy with their own managements. On their very first visit in bankruptcy court, do you really think that American Airlines CEO Tom Horton will be denied the same rights given to all others before him to restructure his airline and be profitable?

You already knew this answer really; it is part your innate knowledge of the airline industry and your own consciousness of right and wrong, good and bad, and justice. However, you have been skillfully distracted by fear of the future and the singular focus and promise of a substandard pay raise. Until now, you have only been given bits and pieces of information on this merger. Given enough time and access to the complete truth, you would have realized this on your own.

The full, difficult truth of what is before us is hard for many to accept because many believe weve got time to change this, our management will come around; of course we’ve got to be treated fairly. Again, your innate consciousness and memory of our own history tells you otherwise. My highest responsibility is to tell you the sometimes difficult truth and protect you and your family by protecting our contract to the best of my ability. As such, we begin to unravel the truth about the APA term sheet.

Because the AAL pilots are members of the unsecured creditors committee (UCC) in the American Airlines bankruptcy, and in an attempt to take control of American Airlines, our management bargained directly with the APA to gain their support. The payoff to APA was a softening of the severe impact of a greatly feared bankruptcy work life and the preservation of their A fund pension. Our management did this by reaching into our contract to pay for the needed benefits to the American pilots and to sway and convince them that a US Airways led merger was their best answer. We know their problem, because we suffered this pain twice in bankruptcy and gave our management 10 billion dollars in concessions to bring them to this very day with the hoped for ability to plot a takeover of American Airlines. We were, of course, excluded from any of these negotiations because we would have never agreed to the destruction of our own contract. An attempted airline merger has never occurred this way in US airline history until now. What is being agreed to in this APA/management term sheet will immediately change our long fought for contract and your work life forever.

Rest assured in time there will be a much needed industry merger that involves US Airways and American Airlines, it just won’t be done this way at this time. You and American CEO Tom Horton will prevent that.

Here is a very important point for you to understand. This is an ALL IN battle for every US Airways pilot senior, junior, east, west, north, south, new hire, or about to retire - no one in our entire pilot group is spared from the harm of the APA/management term sheet as presented.

As your former Scope Committee Chairman I have reviewed this term sheet and alarmed to discover how very bad this plan is. Unless the company agrees to changes, here are the problems for all US Airways pilots created by the APA/management term sheet for this hoped for and wished for merger; All scope protections have been obliterated there are none as we know it. There is no protection for minimum fleet size or minimum daily hourly utilization minimum on our side, on their side at all - none. This means jobs, and that means pilots, and number required. No guarantees for existing jobs on our side today or our side tomorrow.

No mainline wide body or international job/fleet protections are found anywhere. There is a ratio for mainline narrow body aircraft flying versus small narrow body E190/195 (with an already agreed upon horrific B scale wage rate). This is basically a group II to group I ratio, but the company has the right to allocate from day one these aircraft to the bases they want. Nowhere in the term sheet is the A330 or B767 aircraft or flying mentioned, or guaranteed. Those flying the A330 and B767 today may find themselves pushed down to the narrow body aircraft while you taxi in and park next to an American pilot flown B767 or B777 finishing an international flight in CLT, PHX, or PHL. You guessed it, there are no protections either on the flying we already perform today, or will perform tomorrow, in our US Airways system. This means the possible downscaling of our entire flying essentially the New American Eagleazation of your career.

In the end after this proposed merger, very few of our captains may be making $172/hour flying the A320. The remaining captains may be flying the E190 at $116/hour.

Already agreed upon implementation of Preferential Bid System on day one. This will wipe out up to 500 jobs overnight on the US Airways east system and will nullify the same amount of long awaited pilot attrition due to retirements starting in December 13, 2012. This will affect every pilot, every aircraft, and every seat and will be felt from top to bottom. Pilot created line construction, lead in/out conflicts, vacation trip drops, and training conflict trip drops are gone. Daily processing of open time, the Bid sheet and the AIL are gone. Open time trip awards based on seniority gone. USAPA has a standing resolution abolishing Preferential Bidding yet the APA/management term sheet gave this away at the first whack.
Unlimited Code Share with Alaska Airlines and any of its affiliates without restriction (except to/from Hawaii and inter island flying done by Hawaiian Airlines). This could have a severe impact on PHX based pilot jobs and the amount of flying available. Our passenger with our ticket will ride to and from his destination on an Alaska Airlines jet the same trip you used to fly.
Immediate reduction of current PHX based B757 Hawaii flying equating to up to 60 pilot jobs.
Unlimited Code Share allowance with the other Major 121 carriers.
Pay as you go contractual language that requires management approval for changes or mandatory arbitration with the companys already named Arbitrator Robert Bloch.
Immediate ability for the company to give up to 35% of our shuttle flying to outsourcing.
It is already agreed that we will pay for the cost of freezing the APAs pilot 'A' plan pension each year at no benefit to us.

To fully explain all of the APA/Management term sheet give-backs from our contract would take multiple hours. I have tried to hit SOME of the high points here and would have liked to report better news, but there is none, unless our management decides to negotiate with us as they should.

Know this;

This last chance merger is all CEO Doug Parkers to win with us or to lose without us

I regret that this difficult truth is this bad, because you deserve to be fairly compensated and treated with dignity, respect, and professionalism for the difficult job we do every day for this airline. As I committed to you several years ago, I will not lie to you or leave you behind in the decisions you ask me to make on your behalf.

We have not brought us this far, on this difficult life journey, to be left behind or forsaken now you already knew that too.

It is an honor to represent you and know you. Thank you for your time and see you on the line or the next BPR meeting soon.

Sincerely,

DeWitt Ingram
CLT USAPA Board of Pilot Representatives Candidate for Appeal Board seat 3